Alpine Overture

Hi everyone! It's my first thread on this forum so I thought I'd start with a rather recent composition of mine. It's not finished just yet but hopefully I'm getting there :blush: There isn't much of a story to it, but as the name implies it's intended to conjure up scenes of fun and general horseplay in a snowy, alpiney area.

It's about 7 and a half minutes long. Hope you like it!

Mp3 - http://www.sibeliusmusic.com/mp3/7/7/9/77937.mp3

MIDI attached.

Bravo! One of the best single movements I've ever heard on YC.

Great start to the piece, and brilliant orchestration - I must especially compliment your use of the horns in a relatively light texture, solo passages, and use of rhythmic motives in the background. The only thing I don't especially like about the orchestration in general is that you're severely underusing the lower strings - the piece works well enough as is, but it's worth considering the dramatic effect of lower string melodic material.

Now, criticisms:

Measure 37 - sounds strangely open - I think it's the 5th-to-4th movement in the viola and cello parts. Is this intentional?

The episode from (approximately) 1:35 to 2:00 is less effective: the descending scale passages sound a bit off, and some of the harp/celesta passages early in that segment likewise sounds strange. The arpeggios in measures 56 and 58 are more idiomatic and work very nicely. Some of the same motivic material is used much more effective around 3:00.

I like the English horn solo at measure 73; very well-timed.

From measures 94-116 I'd hate to be playing first horn in your orchestra - extended upper-register passages are extremely difficult for any horn player. You're even above the horn's "standard" range at one point - while I know that Corigliano has been known to hit the high concert G, I would not recommend going above concert D for more than one or two notes.

Around 3:45, I'm definitely liking the way you pass the theme around the woodwinds.

At measures 144-145, the combination of trumpet and flute, with horn and bassoon taking over for the flute, seems like a less-than-effective orchestration for the melody being played. The flute is likely to be overpowered in the first place; the bassoon adds an odd edge to the sound (and definitely doesn't match the flute at all), and adding the horn in unison with the trumpet doesn't really do anything for me. I personally might add, instead of horn and bassoon in unison with the trumpet, tuba and double bass (or even bassoon!) an octave below.

At 4:45, the violin solo seems incongruous with the rest of the piece... the cello solo afterward less so, though I have concerns about the cello being heard.

The climax immediately afterward feels rushed. Springing it on the listener so quickly is a bit of a shock, and not in a good way; I would have liked to hear more of a buildup to it, especially after the jazzy violin solo. It's also a bit too busy for having appeared so suddenly. The brass melody after measure 176 sounds like a more appropriate way to build into that type of climax.

The coda, IMHO, is just about flawless.

Hey CaltechViolist, thanks a lot for such a detailed reply! I'll get back to you with my thoughts soon though I have to say I definitely agree about underuse of the lower strings (something I'm nearly always guilty of).

Thanks again :)

Thank you, I really enjoyed your contribution.

I also learned a lot of CaltechViolist's comment.

Though I'm not sure to agree on all comments, he realy gives an indepth comment.

I toke a peek on the internet and found more of your fine compositions.

please share!

could you publish the link to the score?

Sure mate! But this score may be an older version so you might find a few differences.

http://www.sibeliusmusic.com/cgi-bin/show_...l?scoreid=77937

I'm quite eager to post lots of my compositions but I don't know if I should post loads in a small amount of time. People might get annoyed that I'm being greedy with the services of the experts :)

I'm quite eager to post lots of my compositions but I don't know if I should post loads in a small amount of time. People might get annoyed that I'm being greedy with the services of the experts :)

In my opinion it would be wise not to flood the fora. In this way each individual work might get the attention it deserves and so give enough space to observe/listen and learn.

If you catch the attention of the experts, good on you. It might be flattering to get comments on your own work but my personal interest is to learn-discover. I find I learn and broaden my horizon studying the music and reading the comments of other composers.

Thanks for the link!

Artisimo :)

No I definitely agree that learning from your own mistakes and teaching yourself is probably the most important thing, but I find it difficult to find music people to show my work. There's no music department in my university :)

Hey :) Thanks again for what you've provided so far it's really appreciated. I've had a listen while reading through your comments and here are my responses (I'll post a new version soon so you can tell me what you think of my changes so far):

Bravo! One of the best single movements I've ever heard on YC.

Great start to the piece, and brilliant orchestration - I must especially compliment your use of the horns in a relatively light texture, solo passages, and use of rhythmic motives in the background. The only thing I don't especially like about the orchestration in general is that you're severely underusing the lower strings - the piece works well enough as is, but it's worth considering the dramatic effect of lower string melodic material.[/b]

Definitely going to think about what I can do to make the lower strings more involved! Would you be able to point out any useful examples? I find it very useful to study other people's music.

Now, criticisms:

Measure 37 - sounds strangely open - I think it's the 5th-to-4th movement in the viola and cello parts. Is this intentional?[/b]

No it isn't :thumbsup: I've changed it a bit now and I think it sounds better...

The episode from (approximately) 1:35 to 2:00 is less effective: the descending scale passages sound a bit off, and some of the harp/celesta passages early in that segment likewise sounds strange. The arpeggios in measures 56 and 58 are more idiomatic and work very nicely. Some of the same motivic material is used much more effective around 3:00.[/b]

Argh this bit has been annoying me. I mean, I know what you mean but I have no idea what to do about it :( Am I just getting the scales/chords 'wrong', or do you think it's worth changing this segment entirely.

From measures 94-116 I'd hate to be playing first horn in your orchestra - extended upper-register passages are extremely difficult for any horn player. You're even above the horn's "standard" range at one point - while I know that Corigliano has been known to hit the high concert G, I would not recommend going above concert D for more than one or two notes.[/b]

Well I've put the ridiculously high note (the G) down an octave but the others have been a bit frustrating. How tough is it to reach a high D on the french horn?

I play trumpet and while a high C is considered the standard highest note I know that good trumpet players can go one or possibly two tones higher quite comfortably.

At measures 144-145, the combination of trumpet and flute, with horn and bassoon taking over for the flute, seems like a less-than-effective orchestration for the melody being played. The flute is likely to be overpowered in the first place; the bassoon adds an odd edge to the sound (and definitely doesn't match the flute at all), and adding the horn in unison with the trumpet doesn't really do anything for me. I personally might add, instead of horn and bassoon in unison with the trumpet, tuba and double bass (or even bassoon!) an octave below.

Well... the trumpet doubles up with the piccolo. I thought the piccolo would be audible because the trumpet is playing in a moderately low (so not too loud or overpowering) register while the piccolo is playing in quite a high one (very high compared to the trumpet anyway).

I'll probably go with your idea of adding a string solo to go with it and maybe take away the french horn (I use a lot of horn .. I love the sound :cool: ). Perhaps I could give the bassoon to the tuba. I'll play around and see what sounds better!

At 4:45, the violin solo seems incongruous with the rest of the piece... the cello solo afterward less so, though I have concerns about the cello being heard.

Cello: I, too, share these concerns.... what would you suggest? Maybe I could double it up with another instrument?

The climax immediately afterward feels rushed. Springing it on the listener so quickly is a bit of a shock, and not in a good way; I would have liked to hear more of a buildup to it, especially after the jazzy violin solo. It's also a bit too busy for having appeared so suddenly. The brass melody after measure 176 sounds like a more appropriate way to build into that type of climax.

One other thing I wanted to ask regards bar/measure 183 - the transition from F major into B minor. I'm pretty happy with the modulation itself but whenever I listen to it I just feel like there are some bits which are out of place, especially on the third beat. I'm going to take a closer look at it.

I'm in a hurry, but I'll answer these two right now.

Well I've put the ridiculously high note (the G) down an octave but the others have been a bit frustrating. How tough is it to reach a high D on the french horn?

I play trumpet and while a high C is considered the standard highest note I know that good trumpet players can go one or possibly two tones higher quite comfortably.

In general, the B-flat in the middle of the treble staff (an octave below the trumpet) is the highest note of the "comfortable range" with good horn players able to play the C and possibly the D quite comfortably, but the high F is about an absolute high for most college-level horn players. High D is reachable for almost all horn players, but most don't like playing up there for longer than a note or two. Mozart's horn concerti, which should be considered the gold standard for horn range, go up to the high E-flat, but never require playing above B-flat for more than a few beats.

Of course, as a brass player, you know that what's really difficult is not just hitting high notes, but staying in the upper register for an extended time, and that was what I was complaining about.

Well... the trumpet doubles up with the piccolo. I thought the piccolo would be audible because the trumpet is playing in a moderately low (so not too loud or overpowering) register while the piccolo is playing in quite a high one (very high compared to the trumpet anyway).

I'll probably go with your idea of adding a string solo to go with it and maybe take away the french horn (I use a lot of horn .. I love the sound :thumbsup: ). Perhaps I could give the bassoon to the tuba. I'll play around and see what sounds better!

I think what's mostly so jarring about it is the fact that the horn and bassoon are in unison with the trumpet... it would be more pleasant if the reinforcement came in an octave below. I think I would personally give the horn line to the tuba, an octave below, and also add double bass (instead of bassoon) an octave below the trumpet.

You should definitely play with different possibilities.

Hey I've made a few changes but nothing substantial yet. Thought I'd put up what I've done so far though. Some of the MIDI instruments don't sound properly because I ran out of channels... if anyone knows how I can solve this I'd really appreciate it!! Also on the MIDI the last few bars after the rit are played too slowly - there's an A Tempo sign which isn't performed. :o

Firstly I think I've remedied that open-sounding bar at about 1.14

Secondly I've put the horn notes down in places but there are still a lot of D's and I think one Eb.

Thirdly I've put a different combination of instruments at 4.30 or so - including CaltechViolinist's idea of doubling up with a couple bass instruments for reinforcement.

Fourthly I have doubled the cello solo with the English horn... hopefully it'll stand out a little better now although I'm not 100% of this combination of instruments but they're both quite mellow so I thought they'd go together well?

5th - At 5.28 I've looked at the transitional bar to try and make the modulation smoother.

Lots of the original problems remain... In particular I think I may need some help in getting the lower strings more involved. It's not something I've ever been particularly good at :thumbsup:

:o What can I say?!

Awesome piece! Definately one of the best things I have heard here. Outstanding!

- Jen :thumbsup:

Thanks everybody :laugh: :happy:

Would anybody be kind enough to help me or show me how to get the lower strings more 'involved'? I'd really appreciate it!

I'm supposed to be working on yet another program for computer science, not downloading compositions to listen to, so I can't stay long to write more, but I had to just say that this piece is fantabulous!! I found it inspiring to me to keep practicing my composing and hopefully post a first piece to this forum after joining quite a bit ago. Thank you for sharing. Ooh, I'm going to go listen to it again!!! :thumbsup:

The music is very very good, but I just think that you use the percussion WAY too much. Percussion is about emphasising a specific section of the piece, not every other bar (mind the exaggeration). Anyway, besides that it is a great piece - keep up the good work.

Yeah someone else has said this too. Which percussion instruments in particular did you find to be overused?

The cymbals, the snare drums, and the glockenspiel.

Hey, here's a slightly updated version. I've tried to involve the lower strings (and brass) more especially in the more climactic bits. I'm not sure whether I've done it properly, though, and I'm also not sure what else to do with them.

Also quick simple question - at the end of the main climax, resolve or no resolve on the paused chord? What do you think? At the moment there's no resolve.

2006_Alpine_Overture2.mid

Hey! How come it was moved? (not that I'm complaining, mind :innocent: )

It was judged to be a major work, that's why. ;)

I just had a chance to listen to this work, and I was thoroughly delighted from start to finish.

I tihnk you made admirable use of your main theme. It is a spritely tune, but you manage ot give it a noble cast towards the end of the work. At first I thought this was a simple rondo work after the first three minutes (the B section material I rather liked, but it doesn't seem to develop anywhere else in th epeice), but then you spring that almost movie-like crescendo on us. The sudden change sin key and development of the section starting around 4:30 were all very well handled and made perfect sense, even if it took us by surprise from time to time.

I really loved the climax, and how we hear that spritely theme one last time before th epiece diseappears with an amused flick of the wrist.

Quite a good job, and this definitely belongs in the Major Works. :laugh:

Should I post the score? Would anybody be interested in seeing it? I have it as a sibelius file.

In case anyone would like to see it here's the sibelius file.

Alpine_Overture.sib

umm...

It seems a lot of people have been saying (or were saying anyways) that they wish there were lower strings in it... I think I like it without the lower strings. I think by not having the lower strings it makes it sound... happier, lighter, almost like you are flying through the clouds rather than running on the ground. Although I think some low strings at 1:30-2:00 would be helpful... (mind that I'm speaking of the original from your first post) and 5:00ish-6:00. Some parts I think are definatly great because of their light non low string sound.

This is one of my favorites here at young composers so far!

Actually, um, the lower strings do play in this piece. They just don't seem to get any melodic material, which was my criticism.

Very good! I like it a lot!! Very joyful and pleasant, making good music that can lift your mood isn't an easy thing! Just beautiful, I love it! Keep it up!