How do I tell if I'm in Bb Major or G minor?

Hi everyone,

I was thinking of writing a Sonata in Bb Major, and began writing, but now I think it may actually be in G minor because I have a cadence ending on G. Anyway, pardon my ignorance, but aside from a piece sounding sad or happy what are some ways in which I can tell which of the two keys I'm writing in? Your help is much appreciated,

Thanks,

Jackson

The chords.

If your piece uses Bb major chords, has progressions of chords that resolve to Bb major, and/or follows musical structures/patterns that revolve around Bb major, then odds are that the piece just so happens to be in Bb major. Contrarywise, if the piece uses G minor chords, has progressions of chords that resolve to G minor, and/or follows musical structures/patterns that revolve around G minor, then the piece is probably in G minor.

If you are still unsure, you could post the score and then someone here could probably help you.

Contrarywise is a word... I think...

Anyways, I agree with Canzano in that D major would indicate that the piece is in G minor (as a matter of fact, that was what I was referring to when I said "progressions of chords that resolve to G minor).

It should be noted, however, that if your piece contains a small G minor section that utilizes D major, the piece still might be classified as Bb major if Bb major is the primary chord of the piece (usually proven by its existence as the starting and/or ending chord of the piece).

I stand by what I said before: that the surest way to determine the key of your piece is to post it.

if you find yourself using F# a lot then it's probably g minor.

I mean, overall it's not 100% important, but it's really a question of "does ending a phrase on g minor feel resolved? Does ending the piece on g minor feel like 'home'? Or dopes it only feel like the end when I land on Bb major?"

I understand your confusion, but I'm not sure why it matters. No matter what you say, some will probably hear it in G minor and others in BFlat. Hopefully the audience will enjoy it either way!

Thanks for your replies, they've been helpful. The only reason I really feel it's an issue is because I'd feel pretty embarassed to call my work Sonata in Bb Major, only to find out later some of the movements are in G minor, that's all.

Thanks again,

Jackson

My old theory teacher said "look at the last note of the piece in the bass".

:dry:

Yeah, one of the most un-helpful tidbits in history.

In your sonata, if u see a lot of variation u cant just said this is the scale..what i always believ is that we dont wanna get stucked in to a one scale or trying to undentify the scale.if the chords supports well thats all.because human imgination should go beyond structural music rules and expression

f sharps

Some good general clues to deciding an overall key:

beginning key?

ending key?

does the alternate key fit into a common modulatory plan?

If it begins and ends in Bb then it's game over. Definitely Bb. If it ends in g then you basically get to choose which one you want to call it. If you're doing more than one movement however then it gets complicated. In the classical vain at least usually the keys have some relevancy to the overall key.

good luck.

Thanks for your replies, they've been helpful. The only reason I really feel it's an issue is because I'd feel pretty embarassed to call my work Sonata in Bb Major, only to find out later some of the movements are in G minor, that's all.

Thanks again,

Jackson

Just give it a different title then. Problem solved!

Thanks for your replies, they've been helpful. The only reason I really feel it's an issue is because I'd feel pretty embarassed to call my work Sonata in Bb Major, only to find out later some of the movements are in G minor, that's all.

Thanks again,

Jackson

Shostakovich titled his 15th symphony "In A Major" despite the fact that it doesn't ever hit A Major until the middle of the fourth movement. Samuel Barber's Piano sonata is titled "In Eb Minor" even though it really never settles in Eb Minor until more than halfway through the first movement. Scriabin's Fifth Piano Sonta "In F# Major" doesn't start out in F# Major and the chord itself only appears about three or four times in the entire piece... never really acting as a cadence either. Honestly, it's the 21st century and composers have been designating key signatures for pieces other than the key they start in or end in for close to a century now. Don't worry so much about it.

My freshmen music theory teacher was this little cute Asian Women. She had a shisu she would bring to class. Anyway, besides the point.

Every day before she started her lecture, she would say "The bass is the foundation of harmony."

She said this every day. I don't know if this helps, but it just reminded me of her.

The End

P.S. Could we possibly see the piece?

P.P.S. "Contrarywise" The linguist in me cringed a little. :P Very cute, but no. That is not a word. ;)

Sorry, I'd show you the piece but it's not quite finished yet and I'm also not sure it meets my standards for sharing. Anyway, I'm pretty sure now that it starts in G minor and then modulates to Bb Major, then returns to G minor, so I think I'm going to just change it to Sonata in G minor. Thanks again for your replies, they've been helpful.

Jackson

I thought a rule of a minor key was to raise the 3rd of the chord 5...

Anyone else hear that?

On the grapevine... :D

Yeah, raising the leading tone is very common. Most harmonically, and melodically when going up, in which you also raise the sub-mediant (or is that called the mediant? it's been a while since I used that terminology)...well the 6th scale degree. It's a rule that is commonly used. This is why we play the melodic and harmonic minor scales in school, instead of natural minor :)

I am annoyed on how many people have commented on my usage of the word 'contrarywise,' claiming that it is not a word. I believe that 'contrarywise,' or rather, 'contrariwise' (forgive me for my misspelling) is a word because it was in fact used by a prominent author, Lewis Carroll. Moreover, upon submitting 'contrariwise' to Google, one receives multiple dictionary sites that have definitions for 'contrariwise,' which means 'on the contrary.' If it turns out that it really isn't a word, I really don't care because half of the words we use today weren't words in the original English language (such as 'customize,' etc.).

Contrarywise is most definitely not a word. You mean "On the contrary".

This highlights something which has been a problem in discussions attempting to inform others, Nicola, the two participants here understand that term, and apparently it is not a hard term of which the meaning can be comprehended.

Honestly, what did you accomplish by posting that?

Don't let the grammar nazis get you down, Xeno. On the other hand, Lewis Carroll's use of words is highly literary and was intentionally "bad." Of course, we all knew what you meant.

/ot

If you can't tell if you're in the relative major or minor, how can we tell you? Many of these choices are asserted by either the composer or historians based on composers' writings.

I'd argue that making an extended passage in the relative minor isn't enough to warrant this kind of worry -- it's the same notes, just with different emphasis.

the D major could be the best indicator in a common harmony sonata....

There are pieces (mostly pop songs) that never pass through the tonic....

i.e "Milky - Just The Way You Are" it's in Cm but is all Ab Bb G, Ab Bb G,

YouTube - Milky - Just The Way You Are [With Lyrics!]

If your sonata uses classcal harmony it won't be problems to determinate the key, post the score or a midi and we'll tell you.

now... It could be in both too. you may not change the key signature but change the tonality...

many songs have the chorus in Major and the verses in relative minor

In my very personal opinion, I don't like those titles like "Symphony in Eb" or "Prelude in Dm" even "Melody in F"... to me that sounds like an untitled work, .... like a painting named "Painting with Red", "Painting with Yellow", "Picture in dark colors"....

even with the existence of tons of pieces with that kind of title and many of those are good, very good, extremly good, ... I still don't like it... well, let's say I prefer another title....

The things been said are good as a "technical" solutions, but the "feeling" of a Bb and a Gm piece is most of the times very clear to identificate... what do you "feel" your sonata is in ?