ORCHESTRATION FINAL HELP *URGENT*

Hey everyone,
Just survived the rough draft reading for my orchestration final… and whew, it told me exactly where the holes are 😅

Next Wednesday is the graded final reading session, and that’s it for the semester. I’ve got 4 minutes total to work with, and I want to make every second sound as full and grandiose as humanly possible.

This is where you all come in: I need feedback. and LOTS of it. The thorough, measure-by-measure kind. The more detailed, the better.

If you’ve got thoughts on:

• Range issues (too high, too low, awkward spots, etc.)

• Fullness/balance (where can it sound bigger, richer, more epic?)

• Orchestration ideas (doublings, color, texture, part-writing tweaks)

• Any “this feels empty, fix it like this” moments

• And especially help with how to CADENCE/land the piece from where it currently is (I’ve got a strict 4-minute cutoff, so I need a strong, convincing ending)

I got feedback from the players today, and these are their notes:

• Strings want to play more

• Not as full-sounding (too many breaks where someone plays something, then the next measure it completely switches -- more feathering)

• Sustained tones for low brass and low strings

• More dynamic/articulation markings

• Viola wants more

• Chord into big run at the beginning needs to be smoother and more grand - I was thinking of having more people play, then thin it out as the piece "begins."

And most importantly...Florence Price is one of my favorite composers, and I want this orchestration to do her justice.

I've attached the full score, a recording from the reading session, and the PDF of the original piano piece (marked with where I've reached so far)

FANTASIE NEGRE.pdf

Fantasie Nègre - ORCHESTRATION FINAL.pdf

Edited 20 hours ago20 hr by BlackkBeethoven

Hi @BlackkBeethoven

The first PDF file that you've uploaded doesn't seem to be working, so I have to pause the YT video to compare your score to the original piece.

I think you've chosen a very difficult piano piece to orchestrate. I am assuming it was your choice to orchestrate whatever piano piece you wanted since you say you like Florence Price so much. I could say more about your choice given that you knew you only had 4 minutes to work with and the piece is over 7 minutes long - but it's too late to bother about that now.

This piece is difficult to orchestrate because of the many florid fioraturas/roulades that it contains. But there are things you could do to facilitate them throughout the orchestra. First, since the fioraturas in the beginning go all the way from the very high range to the moderately low, I would have made sure to give those to the strings since they have a more homogeneous sound throughout their range. So I'm surprised to see that you have just the Flutes/Piccolo on that part - that part is very thinly scored and isn't utilizing the full body of the orchestra. If I had my way with that part I would have given it to the woodwinds and the strings doubling each other + harp. I'm guessing you don't have harp. You've retained the piano staff in this score even though the piano doesn't play anything. I don't think you should have the piano play anything in this orchestration because it would most likely serve as a crutch to fill in holes that your orchestration should fill. Speaking of holes - in measure 6 you have the trombone start the low melody but then it's not continued for some reason. You score the melody more fully without fragmentation in measures 8 - 9. Throughout this whole introduction you really underuse the strings and I think for that reason the piece doesn't sound fully scored. Those are just my first impressions of the introduction of the piece. Good luck in your final and thanks for sharing!

From the eyes of a pianist:

One thing I feel you have not considered in your orchestration is the fact pianos have a sustain pedal. One thing clearly lacking is the sense of prolonged chords over an active line. In the video you linked, it has the pedal markings in place, so you can reference where Price does that. This is another key reason why your orchestration sounds empty.

How to orchestrate this? As one example, I am going to link this video by Alex Heppelmann:
https://youtu.be/sTZCFa7B6BA?si=vI-hAEGclgkSde-V

Disclaimer, it is 27 minutes long, however, it's very thorough describing how to take a piano melody and use the orchestra to create some ideas of a piano sustain pedal. In my personal style, I will use the horns to sustain the harmony on long tones, while the strings pulse the harmony similar to what a piano score would do. If not this, I would swap the roles. The melody in this case, would be featured in woodwinds, another instrument family, or lead/solo instrument. Good luck to you and if you want to see some sample notation, let us know!

This Fantasie is a very wonderful piece and I find it is so conversational. It really feels like an orchestra notated in the piano and in my opinion is an excellent piece to showcase the capabilities of the piano and a performer.

6 hours ago, PeterthePapercomPoser said:

I am assuming it was your choice to orchestrate whatever piano piece you wanted since you say you like Florence Price so much. I could say more about your choice given that you knew you only had 4 minutes to work with and the piece is over 7 minutes long - but it's too late to bother about that now.

Yes, it was our choice and I should have said this in my original message, but the assignment was to orchestrate an excerpt. As in, if your piece was shorter than 4 minutes, you had to pick something else lol.

6 hours ago, PeterthePapercomPoser said:

First, since the fioraturas in the beginning go all the way from the very high range to the moderately low, I would have made sure to give those to the strings since they have a more homogeneous sound throughout their range.

Should I keep the flutes in, but just double it in the strings so we get more of a full texture?

What are your thoughts on the rest of the ensemble holding that Em chord while the flutes and strings fly down? Also, what do you think about that rhythm? I'm probably going to need to edit so it sounds smoother.

As always, I greatly appreciate your feedback 😁

Edited 11 hours ago11 hr by BlackkBeethoven

4 hours ago, MK_Piano said:

One thing I feel you have not considered in your orchestration is the fact pianos have a sustain pedal. One thing clearly lacking is the sense of prolonged chords over an active line.

YES...yes yes lol. I am a pianist as well and this is something I was conflicted about the entire time I was writing this arrangement. How to keep that lower sustained harmony since the piece clearly doesn't have too many lol

My cello friends were telling me to just give them the chord tones at the beginning of each bar, but then the line is moving so they're not sustained. Which is adding to the thin sound.

I really appreciate your feedback, I want this to be as good as it can be, so anything helps.

This thread made me think about one of my own projects, to orchestrate piano songs I wrote a long time ago in 1993, and I wrote this, possibly to let myself and others know that even orchestrating ONE song or piano piece requires a lot of thought!

The thread of someone asking for help on their orchestration exam...really, it triggered me to think; I would have to take myself back to school to do this effectively! I would begin by simply comparing Mahler's orchestrations of his Wunderhorn songs with the piano versions. I think the only reason I could ever orchestrate at all was because I listened to every Mahler symphony a couple dozen times! EVEN THE SEVENTH! 🤣Or was it a few dozen times? I also am not completely confident in my ability to orchestrate piano music; it's really hard!

It's really true: I never worked too hard on orchestration, just learned a bit from Mahler by osmosis, and have not written much orchestral, and I think the orchestration is decent, but really just all the Mahler I listened to and the scores I studied by him and others...I wish you luck! Mahler is a good model: no matter how huge the orchestra, it is rarely used all at once, but still, everyone gets something valuable to do, and in those huge scores, one staccato mark, say, on one note matters.

9 hours ago, MK_Piano said:

In my personal style, I will use the horns to sustain the harmony on long tones, while the strings pulse the harmony similar to what a piano score would do.

Do you have an example of how that would look on a piece like this?

14 minutes ago, BlackkBeethoven said:

Do you have an example of how that would look on a piece like this?

Yes, just give me a few to write it in this case.

34 minutes ago, MK_Piano said:

Yes, just give me a few to write it in this case.

Thank you - you are the best 😁

33 minutes ago, BlackkBeethoven said:

Thank you - you are the best 😁

Okay, it's time:

I only did the introduction as this is not my project lol. The main thing you'll notice is how I prolonged pitches in the instruments compared to what the piano score looks like. This is how I was able to write a piano sustain pedal in this case. I am unsure if I would change anything, however, I spent only an hour on this and would probably mess around with it if I had more time.

Attached is a Transposed score, Concert-pitch score and an MP3 audio. (Use the C-score to compare to the piano and transposed score for the parts)

Fantasie_Negre_Excerpt_C-score.pdf Fantasie_Negre_Excerpt_Transposed.pdf

Edited 4 hours ago4 hr by MK_Piano

2 hours ago, MK_Piano said:

Okay, it's time:

I only did the introduction as this is not my project lol. The main thing you'll notice is how I prolonged pitches in the instruments compared to what the piano score looks like. This is how I was able to write a piano sustain pedal in this case. I am unsure if I would change anything, however, I spent only an hour on this and would probably mess around with it if I had more time.

Attached is a Transposed score, Concert-pitch score and an MP3 audio. (Use the C-score to compare to the piano and transposed score for the parts)

Ok wow - this is VERY helpful...I see your thought process very clearly here.

Do you have any suggestions for me as I continue to refine the arrangement? I'd like to get more instrument involvement throughout.

9 minutes ago, BlackkBeethoven said:

Ok wow - this is VERY helpful...I see your thought process very clearly here.

Do you have any suggestions for me as I continue to refine the arrangement? I'd like to get more instrument involvement throughout.

Yes, I do:

Keep the melody intact. As pianists, we often find that composers embellish around the melody with active passages, sometimes played between both hands and sometimes only in one hand. However, with the orchestra you have a lot more diversity when it comes to sustaining a melodic line and dispersing the accompaniment. So, as one suggestion, pick and choose where to keep the melody intact.

Next, inform yourself of the piece. Florence Price did not come up with the melody. The whole piece is centered around the spiritual "Sinner, Please Don't Let This Harvest Pass". The term Fantasie implies that it is her sense of improvisation. The whole piece can be translated at the "Negro Fantasy" or "Negro Improvisation." This is important as you'll have to pick your battles. You may not be able to write a passage exactly how it's notated on the piano part, but instead, simplify and keep the idea or gesture intact for the orchestra. I did this in my version at measure 6. I was prioritizing the beat and flow of the melody versus the fancy arpeggio.

Lastly, keep the meter simple; change it when the piano version does. The orchestra is not a solo pianist and it's better to keep the meter/ time signature the same as overall score. This may add some concessions when you do. One example in my version is the first arpeggio. Instead of making it fit into the one bar as Price did, I noticed that the arpeggios were grouped in sevens. Thus, I decided to write it out and make it explicit. It added a few measures, but when someone simply hears it, they may not feel the difference. When you look at my score, everything feels clean, and makes sense rhythmically. It's a benefit of keeping the meter related to the original.

Edited 1 hour ago1 hr by MK_Piano