My very first Tone Poem (my most ambitious completed orchestral work up-to-date)

Well, it's been so long since I was last here! I hope this community has been well since.

I’m looking for some nice detailed peer feedback on my first Tone Poem, Myst o' Foryst a Spryng Nyte. It is a 5-part programmatic work written for a large woodwind/brass configuration, percussion ensemble, and features a prominent chamber core of Viola, Double-Bass, and Piano. (My "Alto Piano Trio" ensemble)

I would be nicely interested in your thoughts on the orchestration, the pacing of the sections, and how you perceive the overall structural architecture as you listen along with the score.

Please tell me of your stylistic impressions of this piece!

(Note: this is a computer generated audio RENDER; not a live performance. Some of the techniques were lost in translation when it rendered, so it wouldn't sound correct. This is ESPECIALLY true of the audio files IIa and IIIa. If in a moment something sound so "wrong" and "off" in any of these audios, please rely on what is written on the page.)

Thank you for your time and ear!

A. Chen - Myst o' Foryst a Spryng Nyte - 000 - FULL SCORE (with Conductor's Rhythmic ref).pdf

Edited June 25Jun 25 by ARCMusicPublishings

Hmmm. I'm trying to figure out why other people's showcased music posts have mostly received replies and feedback within 1-3 days, while my piece has not seen a single reply after an entire week.

I'm just taking a shot at the dark: the majority of people who visited this thread have been subconsciously made resistant to finish the piece from start to end, after listening to the first few moments of it; noting my "flighty" music behavior: going from one idea to the next, without endowing and developing much of any of them. This makes them "not want to" discuss the music, because it would be "hard" to; when the "central themes are not there". Would this sound about correct? 😁

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edit - I said a whole lot more at first; and realize that I should keep it concise. This Tone Poem is meant to follow a style akin to "stream of consciousness": it's supposed to sound like ideas just come and go.

On the other hand, there are central themes, and they do develop. Like Stravinsky's "Rite", one simply can't readily note them on first, second or third listen. But, they are there!

Edited Wednesday at 09:10 AM5 days by ARCMusicPublishings

This is an ambitious and challenging work.

It reminds me of two pieces I saw workshopped earlier this year, as part of the LSO's Panufnik Scheme (at least in terms of complexity of the scoring).

Not sure I can offer anything useful, since your scoring is far more advanced than mine!

I did spot one or two issues in the engraving that you're probably already aware of.

These were:

A misspelling on Page 2 ('deturned' instead of 'detuned' in the Viola instructions).

Awkward beaming alignment in Bar 35 of the celesta part (one of the noteheads seems to be floating away from the beam, and is missing a stalk).

Misaligned brackets in Bars 31 and 32 of the Doublebass part.

Bar 74 and elsewhere: not sure why you write Celest' instead of Celesta? Looks a bit odd.

Musically I really enjoyed it, and liked how you used the extended techniques.

These were not there just for the sake of it; but to create a useful effect within the narrative of the music.

I had to look up some of your directions (like gioiosamente), as I'd never seen them before!

Sorry I can't be of more help,

Alex

I'm sorry there hasn't been more comments on this very ambitious project. The orchestration is quite overwhelming. I wonder if more could have been accomplished with less. When I listened to the work mostly straight through .... I was looking/listening for a central prominent integrative theme(s) to guide me.... Did I miss something here?

Mark

Edited Wednesday at 09:11 PM5 days by MJFOBOE

Rescinded.

Edited Wednesday at 10:10 PM5 days by Alex Weidmann

Alex, I corrected the post ... you can delete yours ..........

Mark

Hmmm. I am a bit curious about what was said before the edit; and what was rescinded. What was happening while I was away at my breakfast and rehearsals in Bulgaria? 😁

10 hours ago, MJFOBOE said:

I'm sorry there hasn't been more comments on this very ambitious project. The orchestration is quite overwhelming. I wonder if more could have been accomplished with less.

Can you elaborate on what you believe could have been less and still achieved the same affect/goal? What exactly about my orchestration was "overwhelming"?

Specific measure numbers and/or sectional reference would be greatly helpful.

10 hours ago, MJFOBOE said:

When I listened to the work mostly straight through .... I was looking/listening for a central prominent integrative theme(s) to guide me.... Did I miss something here?

Well, there you have it.

Have you figured out the theme yet? 😊

13 hours ago, Alex Weidmann said:

I did spot one or two issues in the engraving that you're probably already aware of.

These were:

A misspelling on Page 2 ('deturned' instead of 'detuned' in the Viola instructions).

Awkward beaming alignment in Bar 35 of the celesta part (one of the noteheads seems to be floating away from the beam, and is missing a stalk).

Misaligned brackets in Bars 31 and 32 of the Doublebass part.

Bar 74 and elsewhere: not sure why you write Celest' instead of Celesta? Looks a bit odd.

Musically I really enjoyed it, and liked how you used the extended techniques.

These were not there just for the sake of it; but to create a useful effect within the narrative of the music.

I had to look up some of your directions (like gioiosamente), as I'd never seen them before!

Sorry I can't be of more help,

Alex

Alex, I greatly appreciate your pointing out the little notational errors.

In regards to many of them: I'm just going to point out that I'm still using Finale! After correcting an error, a new one may potentially pop up later.

My 2024 laptop continues to update, while the program doesn't anymore alongside it!

Sooner or later, I'm going to switch to Dorico. But, I suppose for the time being my having been a decades-plus-long customer of Finale makes me stubbornly clinging to it! ha!

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As far as Celest' versus Celesta is concerned: I suppose you raised a nice little question mark even for me. I'm actually not sure why I did this!! I suppose at some point, I learned of the conversational-shorthand "Celest'"; and thought it sounded pretty; and no one had so far objected to it. ***shrugs*** Of course, depending on how big of a distraction it is, I can simply revert to "Celesta" with no problems.

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Notational issues aside, I've never heard of the LSO Panufnik Scheme. The festivals that I have participated in are typically (though not exclusively) Global Arts United LLC programs: Sophia Symphonic Summit, Brasilia Orchestral Summit, Venetian Art and Music Festival, Vienna Contemporary Composer's Festival, etc. They all have their little unique musical (and social/professional) vibes. What is your program like?

Edited Thursday at 06:36 AM5 days by ARCMusicPublishings

I re-listened to the (entire) work.

"A tone poem (also called a symphonic poem) is a single-movement piece of orchestral music that tells a story, depicts a landscape, or illustrates a non-musical idea. Pioneered in the 19th-century Romantic era, it freed composers from traditional symphonic structures, allowing them to follow a narrative's mood and flow. [1, 2, 3]

Key Characteristics

• Programmatic Nature: Tone poems are a type of program music, meaning they are explicitly designed to evoke an extra-musical idea, such as a poem, short story, painting, or historical event. [1, 2]

• Single Movement: Unlike traditional symphonies, which are divided into distinct, shorter movements, tone poems are typically played in one continuous stretch where the music evolves with the story. [1, 2]

• Thematic Transformation: Composers often use a technique called thematic transformation or leitmotifs—where a specific, recurring musical theme morphs in tempo, key, or orchestration to reflect changes in a character's emotions or the progression of the plot. [1, 2]"

I feel the material could be integrated more, as per the leitmotifs. Each story to me feel too distinct isolated. It reminds me of the music used in telling stories/scenes in a adventure type video game. Now having said this, the orchestration is interesting and creative. In one section you have the English Horn playing against the piano ... maybe the dynamic of the piano should be softer since it overpowers the English Horn which has a softer projection ... Ravel has a piano duet with The English Horn where the piano is ethereal and supports the lush English Horn melodic line. Take a listen below: Listen at the 6 minute interval.

https://www.facebook.com/reel/2867905410232600

Edited Thursday at 02:13 PM4 days by MJFOBOE

8 hours ago, ARCMusicPublishings said:

Notational issues aside, I've never heard of the LSO Panufnik Scheme. The festivals that I have participated in are typically (though not exclusively) Global Arts United LLC programs: Sophia Symphonic Summit, Brasilia Orchestral Summit, Venetian Art and Music Festival, Vienna Contemporary Composer's Festival, etc. They all have their little unique musical (and social/professional) vibes. What is your program like?

This is a scheme run by composer Colin Matthews and the London Symphony Orchestra, in memory of Polish composer Sir Andrzej Panufnik.

It's designed to help composers early in their careers.

They only accept 6 students per year, and after the workshop, 2 are selected to expand their works for a performance at London's Barbican Centre.

I've never applied to the programme myself; I just attended this year's workshop as an observer (since they're open to the public).

On 7/2/2026 at 7:10 AM, MJFOBOE said:

"A tone poem (also called a symphonic poem) is a single-movement piece of orchestral music that tells a story, depicts a landscape, or illustrates a non-musical idea. Pioneered in the 19th-century Romantic era, it freed composers from traditional symphonic structures, allowing them to follow a narrative's mood and flow. [1, 2, 3]

Key Characteristics

• Programmatic Nature: Tone poems are a type of program music, meaning they are explicitly designed to evoke an extra-musical idea, such as a poem, short story, painting, or historical event. [1, 2]

• Single Movement: Unlike traditional symphonies, which are divided into distinct, shorter movements, tone poems are typically played in one continuous stretch where the music evolves with the story. [1, 2]

• Thematic Transformation: Composers often (not always; not being required to) use a technique called thematic transformation or leitmotifs—where a specific, recurring musical theme morphs in tempo, key, or orchestration to reflect changes in a character's emotions or the progression of the plot. [1, 2]"

You list the entire description of what a Tone Poem is typically is considered to be and to contain (edited); almost as if I'm guilty of not accomplishing the very bullet points contained within.

I very much realize that that wasn't what you meant. It certainly gives that impression. 😁

But, more pertinently,

On 7/2/2026 at 7:10 AM, MJFOBOE said:

I feel the material could be integrated more, as per the leitmotifs.

Let me ask you: how many leitmotifs are there in "Rite of Spring"? Furthermore, in regards to the most famous introductory Bassoon motif, which defining presence is what "Rite" is known by: how many times does it transform and gets developed?

Or, does it get developed?

Furthermore, would you have known whether it was developed, and how it was, upon first second, or even third listen?

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Now, let's get back to "Myst":

(added in edit)

How many times do these motifs come back, in various form?

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Also, consider the following arc'd quintuplet motif (from my Tone Poem):

• middle-low pitch

• leaped highest pitch

• second higest pitch

• third highest pitch

• leaped lowest pitch (lower than the first middle-low pitch)

How many times does this motif get transformed and varied?

(One variation includes switching around the orders of the first, second and third pitches in the peak of the arc. Did you catch it?)

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Have you noticed that the A-Section's themed melody became a part of the B-section accompaniment, the B-section's melody became a part of the C-section's accompaniment, and the C-melody was actually the materials that made up the A-section's accopaniment? (It's not a

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Please do take all the above into consideration.

On 7/2/2026 at 7:10 AM, MJFOBOE said:

Now having said this, the orchestration is interesting and creative.

lol Not to humorously twist the usage of the word in this context, but you haven't really developed this point very much. (What exactly are some things that make it "interesting and creative"?

But, I appreciate the compliment.

On 7/2/2026 at 7:10 AM, MJFOBOE said:

In one section you have the English Horn playing against the piano ... maybe the dynamic of the piano should be softer since it overpowers the English Horn which has a softer projection ...

I agree fully. And, I'm sorry the MIDI played the piano part back too loudly.

(I could be wrong, but Oboes usually have a pretty dynamically penetrating quality about it. At least the Oboe does. If the English Horn needs to be louder, I'll simply let my conductor know. We shall see in the first rehearsal of this edition 2.5 in about 5 days; which compositional summer program I'm in is the explanation as to why I've been rather slow at responding to this thread myself.)

Edited 21 hours ago21 hr by ARCMusicPublishings

By the way, I just wanted to clarify that the red notation in the first motif's diagram is not supposed to mean anything. That's just the colored layer being displayed in Finale: the second layer.

Hi again,

Congrats on finishing the Tone Poem.

I am going to listen and examine the score once more. You are correct I only wanted to highlight the last part of the quote in regards to the leitmotif. As you highlighted ... English horns are not the same as Oboes. During a rehearsal the conductor most probably will balance the piano against the English Horn. As per me I see the English Horn as a solo instrument within the ensemble because of its tonal/projection/character. In a larger context its uniqueness can be lost as a line in a full orchestration.

Mark

PS: I enjoyed your pun about my criticism not being fully developed!

Okay, I reviewed the work again. I am curious to know the feedback you have received from your mentor"s?

I still feel the ideas move about too quickly in a thick orchestration .... I feel there needs to be room for the music to breathe to lead and give the listener a moment to connect. For me this didn't happen.

Edited 10 hours ago10 hr by MJFOBOE

16 hours ago, MJFOBOE said:

Hi again,

Congrats on finishing the Tone Poem.

Well, thank you. 😊😇😊

16 hours ago, MJFOBOE said:

Okay, I reviewed the work again. I am curious to know the feedback you have received from your mentor"s?

I still feel the ideas move about too quickly in a thick orchestration .... I feel there needs to be room for the music to breathe to lead and give the listener a moment to connect. For me this didn't happen.

Many have heard my music. To answer your first question, it was a mixed bag: some say it was their "most favorite" of all student compositions, while others said "don't give it to an orchestra". (Flattery much? Ha. 😏)

In a three-judge panel at my university's blind Spring Competition for Composers, the first threw a.... kind of.... thoughtless textbook criticism at me, one which I've heard countless of times being used on composers. It does loosely align with your own sentiment, only worded less positively (almost sounding as an insult dressed up as constructive criticism; backhanded constructive criticism, if I may):

that my music was a "plethora of ideas that didn't develop". He felt that my music was "meandering without a sense of direction"; that my "future focus" can be on "where the music goes and why". (I don't think you yourself had mentioned anything about lacking direction and development overall; just that my flight-like move from one point to the next made it hard for you to really know what the motifs were; but was overall a joy to listen to. Correct me if I'm wrong, which I can be, but I'm guessing that you at least realize some decent sense of direction and why it went that way, correct?)

What irritated me about this judge is that he completely distegarded just how much effort I had spent developing and honing the very items he says my music lacks (direction and development); dismissing it as if it was another sadly-advertised unseasoned student piece. He had three weeks and a half to look at 5 scores; the other four of which are not nearly as long and nearly as hard as mine. (Believe me: we student colleagues share our music during comp seminar. I saw the files they uploaded the hours before the deadline!) And, the best thing he could come up with is "plethora of ideas that was 'meandering' and 'didn't develop'." (Thanks much for actually taking time to assess my music?)

But then, the second judge from this competition was on the complete opposite end of the opinion spectrum: she "absolutely loved" the "unique and innovative" techniques in my score that "haven't been devised before." Her companion compliments focused on my use of harmonic progression; and how everything invoked a massive mythical imagery. She was only concerned about the way I deployed irregular rests in my 5/4 measures: that it could produce a lot of visual "clogging" in the individual part scores. (She wouldn't have known that, in the part scores, the irregular distribution of 5/4 rests was only on those first measures of exposure; any proceeding measures in that same musical period were given multi-measured rests; as I trust my performers got the beat down, after seeing the first measure of said-irregulsr rests.) Above these, she was very intrigued and eager to learn what the programmatic narrative was.

(There was no word from the third judge; which I found suspicious. He/she may have "disliked" my music so much, the potentially aggressive comment in it could not have been forwarded to me by the composition chair; who told me that the third did not respond. Why wouldnt a judge response?... This is what I predict had happened to my third comment.)

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I think, over all, one main common consensus among (almost) everyone who had commented so far had zoned in on the "moving too quickly from one idea to next". (And, again, wofn it's a stream of consciousness type of composition, that's one element that should be anticipated.) After that, it's all up to individual biases.

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All that aside, in regards to your second point (which addressing it was enmeshed into my addressing thr first:

You didn't answer my questions regarding the definine motives that I stated were the Tone Poem; nor did you answer my question about Stravinsky's "Rite". 😁

Edited 1 hour ago1 hr by ARCMusicPublishings