Piano Prelude D Minor op.2

Third prelude of the 8 Piano Prelude series.

Midi:

[ATTACH]12882[/ATTACH]

Score:

[ATTACH]12881[/ATTACH]

I like the simplicity of this piece. It sounds like it might be easy to play for a beginner. Owl have to give it a shot on the piano.

Nice work. :)

By the way, thanks for posting midi files. Being on dial-up those are easy for me to download. ;)

I can't help but think this piece lacks in originality and that the first few bars have been taken from somewhere else. Is it just me or does anyone else think this?

taken? well, i dont take, borrow or steal, sorry you are mistaken. lacks in orginality? im sorry can you be more specific?

Of course, you wouldn't purposely steal anybody else's work. That's called plagiarising and that's cheating and it's very very bad...

I'm not saying that you intended to take somebody else's work. I'm saying that you may have unconsciously written something from your head that is actually a work that you've heard from elsewhere. People get it all the time thinking that they've just experienced a stroke of genius and marvel at how a tune has just written itself out. I’m not completely certain that you have written something which is very similar to something else so that’s why I asked if anybody agrees with me. If not then it’s probably just me at fault.

Looking at your post count and just generally snooping around a bit I got the impression that you could do better than this piece. Maybe I was wrong to do so because I don’t know you, I’m new to this forum and I’ll admit that I haven’t heard much of your previous work. When I say that this particular piece lacks originality I mainly mean the harmony and its progression. I’ll admit another thing now too: I’m no expert on harmony. I’m completely self-taught in composition but I do believe that your chord progression in this piece lacks interest. I’m not saying that you should start being radical or whatever but it’s nice (even if you’re still learning) to try and vary the harmony a bit. Listen to lots of different music and listen to it’s chord progressions.

I know it’s easy to get offended when somebody accuses you of plagiarism. I didn’t intend to upset anyone (if you are upset).

I'm not saying that you intended to take somebody else's work. I'm saying that you may have unconsciously written something from your head that is actually a work that you've heard from elsewhere.

I think it's almost impossible to write music anymore that doesn't sound vaguely familiar to something else. Especially if the piece is fairly simple.

This is a big thing that bothers me. Trying to come up with stuff that truly sounds original and still sounds good is a humongous task. I've always felt it to be a bit ironic that people always say, "Listen to lots of music!". Well duh? The more music you listen to the more likely you are to write something similar to what you've heard. Especially if you're doing it subconsciously.

This is a huge problem with songwriting I think. I try to write all my songs just off the top of my head, yet almost every song I write someone suggests that it sounds like some other song. It's truly difficult to come up with something that doesn't already sound like something else at least in some vague way.

~~~

I should add that it's especially difficult to do if you want it to sounds GOOD.

It's easy to write garbage that doesn't sound like anything else. That's probably because even if it had been written before no one wants to hear it. (ha ha)

did you try it on the piano Abracadabra?

Not yet, but I might try it today. I need to print out the PDF frist. ;)

I might add to that I'm a terrible piano player! But this piece sounds like something that I might be able to play easily (at least in part anyway).

I'm truly an amature pianist who is also self-learned, by the way. I won't say 'self-taught' because I have sought out the advice of teachers in printed materials as well as video examples, etc.

Owl try to give it a shot this afternoon and see how it goes. Owl let you know.

very nice :D, well i work as a piano part time piano teacher :D its not a hard piece, but i have not added any dynamics and few articulations, i want to give the pianist a chance to make his very own version of the piece, so to get it good you need a lot of musicality :)

I think it's almost impossible to write music anymore that doesn't sound vaguely familiar to something else. Especially if the piece is fairly simple.

This is a big thing that bothers me. Trying to come up with stuff that truly sounds original and still sounds good is a humongous task. I've always felt it to be a bit ironic that people always say, "Listen to lots of music!". Well duh? The more music you listen to the more likely you are to write something similar to what you've heard. Especially if you're doing it subconsciously.

This is a huge problem with songwriting I think. I try to write all my songs just off the top of my head, yet almost every song I write someone suggests that it sounds like some other song. It's truly difficult to come up with something that doesn't already sound like something else at least in some vague way.

~~~

I should add that it's especially difficult to do if you want it to sounds GOOD.

It's easy to write garbage that doesn't sound like anything else. That's probably because even if it had been written before no one wants to hear it. (ha ha)

So are you saying that it's fine to write music that sounds like someone else's work just because there's lots of music that has been composed before you?

I don't think that it's impossible to write music that is original. Being influenced by a composer and having echoes of somebody else's style is one thing, taking chunks of someone else's work is another. Now I'm not accusing SimenN of that (again, I

I don't think that it's impossible to write music that is original. Being influenced by a composer and having echoes of somebody else's style is one thing, taking chunks of someone else's work is another. Now I'm not accusing SimenN of that (again, I’m not sure if he has copied anyone) but you're making some moot points here.

Well speaking of moot points, can you offer the piece of music that you believe SimenN's music sounds like? Perhaps we can listen to it and decide for ourselves whether or not it sounds very much like it.

I think anytime you suggest that someone's work sounds like someone else's work you should be able to point to the music you're referring to. Otherwise you're just blowing hot air.

I actually believed this piece to be almost too simplistic..at times the same rhythmic pattern seemd blase after a while. Either way I liked it for the most part it sound almost bachian at parts..as I know that's your favorite composer..so yeah..good job.

Well speaking of moot points, can you offer the piece of music that you believe SimenN's music sounds like? Perhaps we can listen to it and decide for ourselves whether or not it sounds very much like it.

I think anytime you suggest that someone's work sounds like someone else's work you should be able to point to the music you're referring to. Otherwise you're just blowing hot air.

No, I can't. But wait just one second there!! Woah! It's a little early to celebrate victory for now. Yes, I see what you mean by blowing hot air if you have no evidence. But it doesn't mean I'm wrong, it just means I may not be right.

At first, I just wanted to point out what I thought for SimenN's benefit. I had hoped the fact that I found his piece familiar would alarm him and make him think a little harder just in case he has taken a phrase or two from someone else. If after the end of a long think he still can't find something similar to his work then he doesn't have to worry.

If you read my first post on this thread you'll have noticed that I asked if anybody else felt what I felt. I never made a statement saying "THIS IS COPIED FOR CERTAIN!" Why did I ask if anybody else agreed with me? Because I wan't sure (as I've said several times on this thread actually). Why wasn't I sure? Becuase I can't put my finger on that piece of music. Look! You've even quoted me saying that I'm not sure. If I had the piece of course I would have named it and I would have been certain whether SimenN had copied or not becuase I could listen to it and look for similarities.

Also I find it a bit annoying that you failed to address my points. I did make an effort to contribute to the thread and to the debate about innovation in music. What you've done is avoid what I've said and try and put me on the defensive without defending yourself first.

What you've done is avoid what I've said and try and put me on the defensive without defending yourself first.

Well I didn't mean to put you on the defensive. Sorry about that. I just felt that if you're going to suggest that music sounds like something that's already been written you should at least be able to point to the music you think it sounds like.

I thought there were a couple note runs in the melody of SimenN's piece that sounded very similar to one of the Bach Violin sonatas and partitas for solo violin. But even so, is it completely taboo to ever play a phrase again once it's been written by someone?

Seems to me that would be horrible.

You'd be really hard-pressed to know that you've written a piece of music that didn't contain a run of notes almost identical to some other piece of music somewhere.

I sit down at the piano all the time trying to come up with "original phrases". I think it's just about impossible. Almost every combination of notes I try sounds familiar. It's extremely difficult to come up with a run of notes that truly sounds original. AND also sounds GOOD. And you have to add that on, because all the GOOD ones are taking. People have been siting around making up melodies for centuries. There's only 12 notes in a chromatic scale!

It's hard to come up with something that hasn't been done before, or is at least very similar.

And the reason that it's so hard is because most of what you come up with has alread been done to death.

At least that's my feelings on that. I don't see why I should need to defend my feelings.

If you can come up with original phrases with no sweat more power to you! I'm happy for you! I wish I had that gift. ;)

This probably goes back to what I said about 'good' music and its definition. There are only 12 notes in the chromatic scale but there aren't only 12 types of sound in this world. How about the sound between E and F? What about a combination of those sounds? How about those combination of those sounds in a different order? The thing is, as we've grown up listening to the standard chromatic scale with 12 tones, we find listening to anything else weird. This also goes back to listening to more music. Try listening to composers like...I don't know...Debussy. Nothing out of this world but his harmonies can be quite weird at first. Hopefully, you will appreciate 'good' music that you never thought was good before.

Yes, I think it's taboo to write a phrase of music that has already been written. Of course, something like music isn't always black and white and there are contexts to be considered (a musical joke or writing variations to an already-composed theme). But generally, you can't take somebody else's work and say it's yours. Just think how you would like it if somebody took your melody and said they composed it all by themselves.

I'm sure there are plenty of threads on this forum about these topics. I'd like to carry on discussing plagerism and what's acceptable and what isn't. The problem is, there aren't many people reading this thread so it's only the ideas of us two that are being discussed. It's always useful to listen to what other people think. If you can't find a thread then you can always start one yourself.

Just keep on listening to lot's of different music and don't give up trying to make original music. You will get it eventually. Nobody said it was easy!

Here's a little excerpt of a piece I just started working on tonight. I call it "Birds & Bees".

It's for Mandolin, Guitar, and Banjo. Although it could be written for bowed strings too I suppose. I write for these instruments because I play them.

Birds & Bees

I hope it doesn't sound like anyone else's stuff. I'm writing it entirely from inspiration I got from listening to birds and insects today. Of course, this it's extremely in the raw here and it's only just getting underway, but I'm already getting caught up in it. I'm tired now and have to go to bed. That's a shame because I feel like I'm on a roll.

Tomorrow I'll get up and it'll sound like crap. (ha ha)

I was just getting ready to fly with it too. The problem is keeping all these musical ideas going after the body gives out. I put the little "futter" at the end there to try to remind me where I was headed. I think the banjo needs to break loose right about there.

Well fellas a nice discussion. A good point made by Abracadabra never claim music is copyed. Well i dont copy others, but im not sure if you know how compositions works.

Have you listened to trumpet music by Corelli and Torelli? Bach and Vivaldi? listen to Mozart and Kraus? they used the same themes, Corelli got an idea and used it, then torelli heard it, "stole" the theme and developed it and made it hes own. there are many examples like this, with bach, mozart, beethoven, schubert ++

like beethovens piano concerto 3 or 5 not sure, is very inspired by the mozart concerto in c minor. Beethovens piano sonata pathetique movement 2 sound realy like something schubert would have written.

It happens a lot when you compose in a style, the melodic style. That is why the melodies are simmular, im not encouraging you to "steel" or "copy" but if you want to write 100% in a style, you have to do develope ideas you hear. If you listen to a lot of music you will never know if the melody is eintirely yours. And it properly aint. There is a big chance that something you have heard inspired you to the melody you compose, but what is wrong with that? thats the name of the game!

And i dont copy that is why my music dont sound real barqoue, i want the part of myself in the style. So dont say that if you dont have any evidence. People just get fired up.

This is my personal point of view.

I think maybe you should give this topic some thought. First of all, notice the difference between having the same style and using the same passage of music. Two different things. Even then, I think it's wrong to try and emulate somebody else's style exactly because I think everybody is unique and therefore should try and find their own unique voice. By the way, I do know how composition 'works' (whatever that means - it works differently for everybody).

Since when was the name of the game taking someone else's work and saying it's yours? There are reasons why there's even a law against it!!

Again, context is so important and you have to look at how someone else's theme is developed and moulded into a composer's own work. If it's done well that's fine but if it has just been lazily taken and slapped on a work without much change to it then it's wrong.

If you read my posts carefully you'll find I never made a statement saying that you copied for definite. I even pointed that out in another post. You'll also find me saying that the argument 'all the good melodies have been taken' is nonesense because 'good' is different to everybody and will change according to time. Experiment to find new ways of creating 'good' music without having to use somebody else's themes.

A composer creates. You are not creating if you use somebody else's stuff. You are simply playing their work. If you want to make noises which sound nice to you but have already been composed why don't you call yourself a musician instead of a composer? Because you're not creating, you're just making nice sounding noise already composed by others.

We're going to have to agree to disagree. Debates are only useful if both sides are willing to learn from each other and listen in the hope everybody comes out more enlightened. I don't think it's going to happen here. Sorry!

Since when was the name of the game taking someone else's work and saying it's yours? There are reasons why there's even a law against it!!

I don’t know of anyone who even remotely suggested such a thing.

If you think someone did that you should point out the work that you believe has been copied.

Pretty simple really. ;)

This is ridiculous. "S.J. OK!", unless you can offer the piece from which Simen supposedly stole this composition, I'm afraid you'll have to renege on your rather outspoken criticism.

I don't think this piece sounds like it could have been written by anyone but Simen, and it's probably the most harmonically coherent piece of his I've heard.

I asked a simple question. That question was 'Hey! I think this, does anybody else agree or is it just me?'

I can't help but think this piece lacks in originality and that the first few bars have been taken from somewhere else. Is it just me or does anyone else think this?

I never got a direct answer. Instead, I ended up in a conversation about innovation in music which didn't lead to anywhere anyway. Looking at the posts I get the idea that nobody agrees with me. That's fine. I'm happy to say then that perhaps I was wrong. This is not a U-turn or a step back. I never said that SimenN copied for certain.

I’m not completely certain that you have written something which is very similar to something else so that’s why I asked if anybody agrees with me. If not then it’s probably just me at fault.

I never made a statement saying "THIS IS COPIED FOR CERTAIN!" Why did I ask if anybody else agreed with me? Because I wasn’t sure (as I've said several times on this thread actually). Why wasn't I sure? Because I can't put my finger on that piece of music. Look! You've even quoted me saying that I'm not sure. If I had the piece of course I would have named it and I would have been certain whether SimenN had copied or not because I could listen to it and look for similarities.

I thought my first post would be a helpful contribution. I thought that the piece had plagiarised someone else's work. Now it seems I may have been wrong but would it not be helpful if people mention it whenever they feel a work has taken ideas from someone else? Let's say that SimenN had plagiarised. Let's say somebody listened to his piece and thought it sounded dead similar to another piece but they couldn't put their finger on that actual piece. Shouldn't they voice their concerns anyway? Shouldn't they mention what they think in the hope that someone else agrees and can actually name the piece? I made my first post with the very best of intentions. SimenN showed arrogance when he stated that he doesn't copy or take other people's ideas. What if he does it sub-consciously? In fact, everybody probably does it sub-consciously sometimes.

taken? well, i dont take, borrow or steal, sorry you are mistaken. lacks in orginality? im sorry can you be more specific?

I thought there were a couple note runs in the melody of SimenN's piece that sounded very similar to one of the Bach Violin sonatas and partitas for solo violin

I don't think this piece sounds like it could have been written by anyone but Simen

it sound almost bachian at parts

I'll take back my accusation of outright plagiarism. In fact, I never even stated outright plagiarism. I thought the first few bars sounded similar to something I'm sure I've heard before. I guess however, I'm happy to do this. My other 'outspoken' criticisms will not be taken back by me though.