Hello, all. I've been working for while on this Mass in Db Major, even going so far as to create a makeshift recording of some portions. I've actually finished the Credo portion or the work, and I'd really appreciate any comments, any input at all.

Credo in unum Deum in Db Major

Just keep in mind it is a makeshift recording, so the performances are lousy (mostly mine). Also, make sure you listen to the low - fi tracks only, since they blur the lines between synth and actual instruments.

Comment away! :)

Ah, there is something truly beautiful about hearing a men's choir sing in four part harmony! :-)

In listening to these, I can tell you have a pretty good feel for counterpoint and for handling the capabilities of the voice. I love the way the male and female voices are moving against each other in these clips. You've definitely captured the Baroque feel. If I didn't know better, I'd say these were composed three hundred years ago.

Sadly, I don't know a whole lot about this period, so I can only offer encouragement. Keep at it!

Haha, thanks a lot, Matusleo. :o

Wow! Another new member

Originally posted by J. Lee Graham@Aug 6 2005, 12:23 AM

Wow!

While this music is great, both theoretically and melodically, it seems to me that it was written in an unfriendly style for the singer, as it seems that a lot of the vocal melody would be extremely hard to sing. Dont get me wrong the vocal melody is good, great even, but it seemed that its enjoyability was overshadowed by the way the voice struggled to do the melody its justice.

... the voice struggled to do the melody its justice.

Haha, well yes as I've implied I'm not such a great singer. If this was a professional choir, I think this would be a non-issue (hopefully),

Matt, in re-reading my original message to you, I know my intent was to be complimentary to you and offer assistance if you wanted it, but I may have come off as a little pompous. That was the last thing I wanted, and I apologise.

It's true I've been writing in 18th Century idioms for over 20 years (yeah, I'm not really that young a composer anymore...but try to find any other place where people talk about composition seriously). But a bad habit of mine is finding another person similarly minded, even one as advanced as you are, and assuming that s/he will want to do what I do in my own compositions.

I could spend a lot of time and energy explaining exactly why you'll never get an authentic Baroque sound out of your trumpet parts if you write them for a fully chromatic modern instrument, which you obviously have done (they didn't exist until the 1840s); or why hidden parallel fifths in a duet, yet plainly discernable to a trained ear, will make you sound amateurish (and you deserve better); or how no Baroque composer would ever have written a piece for chorus, keyboard continuo and orchestra with brass in D-flat major (the reasons are many and varied). But with all due respect, if you know perfectly well that you shouldn't write a descending series of parallel fifths - a maneuver that would have had Bach tearing his wig and beating you head and knees with his cane - and yet you did it anyway because you thought it sounded cool, you're not going to care about anything I have to say about authenticity. It's a very fine piece otherwise, and I mean that sincerely...but we'll leave it at that.

Just for the heck of it, here's the way I look at writing in a Baroque idiom: In this day and age, with all the other things I could be doing if I had the inclination, if I'm going to write Baroque music, I'm really going to write Baroque music. Why bother otherwise? If I'm going to do something, I'm going to do it right. I subject myself to the same rules, conventions and limitations they worked under, and I'm scrupulous about it. If they could be creative following those stringent rules, so can I. After many unsatisfying attempts at elbowing my way into the idiom and wondering why my music seemed to be lacking something fundamental, I decided long ago that if I were going to compose anything at all like the 18th Century masters did - and that was my aspiration - I had to play the game by their rules. I abandoned a very promising Classical symphony in the middle of the third movement over this decision, and never looked back.

That's how committed I am to authenticity - and that's where I'm coming from. Sorry if I came on too strong. Anybody here will tell you I'm really a nice guy. I just feel really strongly about this...and I'll shut up now! :D

Haha, thanks for the reply, but I think you misunderstood me. I really want to know what I did wrong; I want to be be able to write authentically in the future. This work I guess was just an experiment then.

I know that it was wrong to place it in Db Major, but I did this only because most of my baroque recordings in D are down a half step for no reason. I have no idea why, but I figured that if this was ever recorded in that manner, it would sound in C (which is what I wanted). I should have just left it in C.

I see those hidden fifths now, but I remember wanted to recreate the sound of two horns. Is that really impermissble?

Please don't think I took offense to anything you said (you did go a bit overboard in apologizing for nothing, haha).

So please, explain away ! :unsure:

Baroque recordings do that half-step-down thing in an effort to be authentic, tuning sometimes to A-415 instead of A-440. Although Baroque tunings really came all over the map (literally - it was different by city, I believe), some even higher than 440. At any rate I like it where it is, and wonder if you could write it in D major so it sounds like this :) Also, look into meantone or other tunings that baroque musicians tuned to, nice page here.

(There's something about this kind of unprofessional recording that I really like, and I wonder if it's worth pursuing intentionally and not apologetically...hmm...) (Also, is anyone writing modern, 'inauthentic' music for period music ensembles?! I want to!)

If there are moments of inauthenticity, my ear does notice them as something a little anomalous but is not trained enough to know why. And I was going to say that Crucifixit needs a Phrygian cadence but I changed my mind.

Baroque recordings do that half-step-down thing in an effort to be authentic, tuning sometimes to A-415 instead of A-440. Although Baroque tunings really came all over the map (literally - it was different by city, I believe), some even higher than 440. At any rate I like it where it is, and wonder if you could write it in D major so it sounds like this :) Also, look into meantone or other tunings that baroque musicians tuned to, nice page here.

Cool site, Jacob!

I wonder myself if that's what you were alluding to, Baroque Enthusiast - that is, emulating "baroque pitch" by pitching the whole thing in D-flat. BTW, I believe the only reason why the contemporary "period instruments" gang have latched upon A-415 as a standard for "baroque pitch" is because that's how a certain tuning fork that Handel owned is pitched. It seemed like a good standard, so they went with it. I'm in the process of writing a short treatise on writing for Baroque brass, and I've done some fun research on instances where a piece was composed with the idea in mind that the brass would be tuned to one pitch standard (such as high church pitch) , and the rest of the orchestra tuned to another standard (such as low French chamber pitch), a minor third apart! It's the only way to get a trumpet in D to sound like it's playing in F (i.e. Bach's 2nd Brandenburg Concerto)!

(Also, is anyone writing modern, 'inauthentic' music for period music ensembles?! I want to!)

John Tavener has. I believe there are several others...can't name them offhand.

BE, I'll comment further as promised as soon as I'm out of a current heavy spate of rehearsals and performances.

That's exactly what I was trying to get at with the whole D-flat thing. Thanks for clearing that up, Jacob. Also, I had no idea that's the way they recorded that Brandenburg Concerto. Thats so odd!

Oh my God! The "baroque pitch" thing! No WONDER you wrote it in D-flat! :mellow: Completely understandable.

OK, you've got an incredible ear BE, but you've apparently not seen a lot of stuff in print. That explains SO MUCH. Major editing job on the commentary, coming right up.

Yea, it's been a while since I've had time to work on this, and it's also been a while since Soundclick has been working for me, but somehow I've managed to squeeze out the 1st movement of the Kyrie and get it working online. :)

It's the one on top:

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/5/mattsbar...dings_music.htm

Hopefully, more will come soon....but I'd love any comments/criticism!!! :P

:(

"404 - server error - page not found"

don't you have midis?

"404 - server error - page not found"

don't you have midis?[/b]

Yea, I'm reworking the site, under a new name, it shouldn't be too much longer.

And no way am I using midis for this: you need the text and the voices!!

Hello BE,

I gave a listen to part of your Chorale earlier and its very nice work indeed! My name is Grant and I am also a member of Vox Saeculorum. Its nice to have another member join. I'm curious where you get all these people together to try out and record your music. Its a very admirable achievement to say the least. I myself pretty musch stick to writing keyboard music and have self published 3 books with 2 other soon to be on the way.

I hope yo hear from your further.

Keep up the great work,

Grant

:innocent: No file found.

I'll be watching this - although I haven't mentioned it yet, I really have enjoyed some of your other choral work, BE. I started a Mass as well, a few years ago - it's among my huge pile of other unfinished music.

Alas, the Mass has been finished for quite some time, but I doubt I'll be uploading it. It was an important part of my growth as a composer, and I believe I've moved on (hopefully). However, I'm sure I'll try my hand at the form of the Laitn mass again, down the road.