Baroque Form/Structure Discussion

Hello guys. I am a big fan of baroque music but regrettably don't know much about its form and structure, as opposed to classical structure which I devoted most of my time to studying.

I wanted to bring up this thread for the discussion of baroque structures in all sorts of instrumental/non-instrumental forms.

For now, my specific question though is about the specific structure of baroque concerti grossi. I have yet to attempt any orchestral baroque compositions but I want to do so soon and want to brush up on their forms.

I recently bought a set of Handel concerti grossi for this purpose but I don't have much else so I was wondering if any experts in this field can explain to me the structures that composers such as Handel, Telemann, Vivaldi, Corelli, et al, utilized in their concerti grossi. Is it simple ABA? Is it more free-form, etc..please advise.

I will soon relisten to Bach's Brandenburg concerto's as well to see what structures he utilizes, but while I'm at that, can anyone chime in who is acquainted with the Brandenburgs, and give some opinions as to what the form/structure is that Bach uses?

I ask the same of Bach's keyboard concertos, specifically the first movements, what is the form/structure, etc?

Looking forward to hearing some answers.

Thank you all.

Incidentally, I have begun a concerto grosso yesterday, here it is so far. Hopefully I'll work on it some more today.

http://www.youngcomposers.com/forum/concerto-grosso-baroque-b-minor-18795.html#post281949

Hey, Im glad you are a baroque fan and want to write baroque music! (as a baroque composers myself i have to give you some advice) If you want to compose baroque this forum is not the place for you! There is few baroque composers on this forum, and the majority in here thinks you are stupid because you write in the old tradition! If I where you I would go to Vox S

If you study scores and pieces, you'll get advice from people with over 500 years experience. :thumbsup:

There is few baroque composers on this forum

Really? They must be bloody old, them lot...

There is an online analysis of Handelian opera which may be of interest:

BBC iPlayer - Discovering Music: Handel Operas

Baroque concerti often used Ritornello form. That is to say they used expanded binary/ternary/rondo-like forms (ABA/ABABA/ABACADABA, etc.) Towards the end of the baroque era, you began to see a move towards incorporation of sonata-allegro (which in itself is an offshoot of ternary form). The ritornello form, however, was what I was taught in school - and have seen firsthand through study of various concerti from this period.

Hey, Im glad you are a baroque fan and want to write baroque music! (as a baroque composers myself i have to give you some advice) If you want to compose baroque this forum is not the place for you! There is few baroque composers on this forum, and the majority in here thinks you are stupid because you write in the old tradition! If I where you I would go to Vox S

the members are more skilled then all YC members put together!

Huh.

PS: Grantco? Palestrina64?

So that's where they went, hahaha.

Hey, Im glad you are a baroque fan and want to write baroque music! (as a baroque composers myself i have to give you some advice) If you want to compose baroque this forum is not the place for you! There is few baroque composers on this forum, and the majority in here thinks you are stupid because you write in the old tradition! If I where you I would go to Vox S

All im saying, YC is great for modern, romantic composition, if you do baroque, use vox, vox do baroque/classical only, and that is what they are best at! no one even commented this post before i told the truth, all the last comments is not on hes question or music, but on my reply, that states my point! over and out!

You hurt my peelings :sadtears:

All im saying, YC is great for modern, romantic composition, if you do baroque, use vox, vox do baroque/classical only, and that is what they are best at! no one even commented this post before i told the truth, all the last comments is not on hes question or music, but on my reply, that states my point! over and out!

I don't think you understand...

This site and that site BOTH have very very very experienced writers. There are plenty of individuals here who are more than willing to help you out with pieces. There is a slight negativism towards the artistic merits of revivalist pieces, but the vast majority of people don't give a s*** and constantly try to get people to improve.

If it weren't for the teachers and musicians here, I wouldn't know half the music theory that I do know now and I wouldn't write music that is half as good as what I'm writing now.

The only thing that determines how much you learn is how much you WANT to learn.

To the OP, The Concerto Grosso form follows Allegro - Andante - Allegro format. The first movement is generally like this:

Theme with slight development - Soloist reply to theme with free counterpoint, often visiting surrounding keys - Varied repetition of soloist-thematic material - Orchestra statements of the theme (pattern repeats for however long you want) - Some sort of harmonic/rhythmic sequencing section - Development/Reiterations of thematic material in the middle - Repetition of Original orchestra theme - ending

The Andante section is usually very harmony based

The final allegro form uses ritornello, yes, which is a motif/small theme being passed from orchestra back to soloist with variations and/or new material being added. Think rondo, but not exactly.

Hey mael! Well i disagree with you, yes you fall under my category "Modern and Romantic composition" Big names here that do baroque, SSC metion Grantco and palestrina, Grantco is one of the vox founders, and palestrina a member, there are other great baroque composers here, but i think i speak the truth when i say the revivalist community dont fit YC, take a look at how many baroque pieces anyone comments on? and forexample the experienced fellas, like QCC, how much baroque does he comment, and how much baroque can you learn form him? there is no question that he is a good composer, but he is not a baroque revivalist composer. If you want to learn english you dont go to a french teacher.

The entire point with what i said was : Vox has baroque composers who have done baroque music for most part of their lives, If you are a baroque composer you should go there, and the members there are more experienced then anyone here (ofcourse baroque is the only thing they do) If you where a romantic of modern composer do you think i would recomend Vox? Ofcourse not, i would recomend young composers, but as i have said 1000 times at this forum, revivalist composers are not equal to the other here, they are rearly commented and bigshots pointing fingers, not even commenting on the music.

I guess there will allways be a struggle between revivalist composers and modern, learn what you can and write what you want :)

Mael you where the only one to answer the op, nice ;)

If you are a baroque composer [..']

..then you're dead. There IS no such thing as a living baroque composer. What there is instead is "a composer who writes in imitation of the style and idiom of the baroque era".

All baroque composers are dead. All music (and art) is created within a certain historical, cultural and social context, and so was baroque music, and since it is physically impossible to reproduce the historical, cultural and social context that the people who lived in the years we have named "baroque era" lived in, it's impossible to write baroque music. One might write "baroque-sounding music", but it will never be "baroque music" - unfortunately the Vox Saeculorum people live an illusion and deny to accept the actual now we live in, just like that wanker artist, David McDermott who thinks he can live in the 1900's.

And yes, you're right - you don't go to an English teacher if you want to learn Anglo-Saxon.

Mael you where the only one to answer the op, nice ;)

*cough* I feel so ignored!

unfortunately the Vox Saeculorum people live an illusion and deny to accept the actual now we live in

I'm not VS people, but could you have misunderstood their philosophy?

According to you all Baroque composers are dead. Could you say that all Baroque musicians are dead as well?

And you could be, as Simen said, one of the 'bigshots pointing fingers, not even commenting on the music' ?

According to you all Baroque composers are dead. Could you say that all Baroque musicians are dead as well?

...obviously.

There are people who are into historical performance, and people who are into historical recreations, sure.

But the baroque period is long past. :>

I think the problem so far with this thread is the failure to give proper names and labels. A person who composes in the baroque fashion today would not be called a baroque composer but would be called: neo-baroque (much the same way that a person who composes in a classical fashion would be called neo-classical).

If you believe that 'all baroque musicians are dead' despite the fact that

1. baroque music and genuine baroque instruments have survived to this day, and

2. there are living people who play said music on said instruments,

then it appears that you are strictly adhering to contemporary criterion. That is, one could only be a baroque composer or musician if his/her life overlaps with an arbitrarily defined period in music history, regardless of stylistic considerations.

If so, then the same criterion should apply to ANY arbitrarily defined periods.

Therefore, 'all baroque composers are dead' carries as much weight as 'all non-contemporary composers are dead'. Which really doesn't say much at all.

I think the problem so far with this thread is the failure to give proper names and labels. A person who composes in the baroque fashion today would not be called a baroque composer but would be called: neo-baroque (much the same way that a person who composes in a classical fashion would be called neo-classical).

actually, this would also be erroneous.

Strawinski wrote in a "neo-classical" manner at one point, however, at no time did he compose music that was an imitation of the classical style.

A person who compose today in a baroque manner, following all the rules of the period, is a revivalist. Much like people who recreate period events (such as civil war re-enactments).

There is no point to play with words, you all understand what i mean by baroque composer, ( one who composes baroque music ) if you compose romantic music you are a romantic composer, oki to be totaly correct Neo Romantic, but when we say romantic there is no doubt what the composer write, the discussion is far from the point now.

actually, this would also be erroneous.

Strawinski wrote in a "neo-classical" manner at one point, however, at no time did he compose music that was an imitation of the classical style.

A person who compose today in a baroque manner, following all the rules of the period, is a revivalist. Much like people who recreate period events (such as civil war re-enactments).

I am corrected. Sorry :(

The "neo" connotation does NOT mean "recreation," it means NEW in the sense that it is not a copy of style but a further process originating from that style/idea. Hence, Bartok and Hindemith (Stravinsky, Martinu, etc etc) are all "neo-classical" but not one of them wrote "style recreations."

And, really, as far as reality is concerned, all baroque composers AND musicians are long gone. We have now people who recreate things, but they have, well, the world against them. There's absolutely no way to turn back time and every single influence of the modern world affects the output of those composers, try as they might to "relive" that time.

What you get is simply people copying what survived and trying to go from there, but ultimately the complex web of relationships between politics/beliefs/etc that existed during the baroque and other historical periods is simply not there anymore and thus we really will never be in the "mindset" those people were back then or be influenced by the same things.

Oh, and at that, baroque "music" has survived in the sense that we have the scores, indeed. But there has been a GREAT deal of reconstruction going on to approximate all the things that HAVE been lost (tuning systems, performance practices, etc.) In any case, yeah, you're basically only a "baroque composer" if you literally lived during the baroque period. Otherwise? You're still living in the 21st century and subject to all the influences/etc that entails and unable to really experience the past except through history books, historical recreations and copying. In other words, recreating it.

Tsk, this should be more than obvious by now.

And you could be, as Simen said, one of the 'bigshots pointing fingers, not even commenting on the music' ?

I must admit that I found your comment slightly offending. Firstly, your comment gives out an impression that you're making the assumption that the only form of contribution to people on this website is by commenting on their pieces. Secondly, because that implies that by not commenting often or a lot on pieces in this forum, I am not contributing to the website or its members.

As e.e. cummings said, "think twice before you think" - if there's something else you meant I would appreciate it if you explained it in a clearer way; otherwise, if that's what you meant make sure you're not falling in the argumental trap of "you don't contribute to the community by commenting on the pieces, thus your arguments/claims are invalid." (Fallacy: Circumstantial Ad Hominem)

Other than that, I would like to emphasise the point I made earlier and SSC's consequent comments on that, by saying that yes, all Baroque composers and performers are dead. The instruments might still be here (although they have been distorted in the course of the past 300 years, as they are made from materials very susceptible to time and weather conditions), and we might make sounds that these people made, but we are in no sense baroque people, baroque composers or baroque performers. Just as we'll never really know how a Shakespeare play staged in his time was received by the audience, or how ancient Greeks would perceive and interpret/understand/see "Medea" performed back then, so we have absolutely no way we can listen to music in the same way that people in the baroque time did, let alone compose or perform it. We can simulate composition of the music of the time, and simulate performances of the music of the time, and we can listen to it physically, but it no means will that ever be the same as a person living in the time writing the music, someone else living in the time performing it, and someone else living in the time listening to it (although we may -even now- feel more associated with that kind of music and "accept" it more easily than, say, Xenakis' music, because the most popular music of today is based on concepts and rules derived from the music of the common practice era - but I wouldn't expect someone who only listens to Britney Spears to be able to listen to a Bach Branderburg concerto in the same way that someone who only listens to Bach would - that's the kind of "listening" I'm talking about).

No matter what you say, baroque composers are dead. The baroque era has ceased to be, is no more. It's like Monty Python's dead parrot sketch. In fact,

Therefore, 'all baroque composers are dead' carries as much weight as 'all non-contemporary composers are dead'. Which really doesn't say much at all.

Yes! It says everything!! All non-contemporary composers ARE dead! Stockhausen is dead, Ligeti is dead, Xenakis is dead, Oscar Peterson is dead, John Cage is dead, Morton Feldman is dead, Takemitsu is dead, Rossini is dead, Debussy is dead, Monteverdi is dead, Elvis is dead (subject to discussion), Plato is dead, Bach is dead, Beethoven is dead, Spohr is dead and the list can go on and on and on and on.

Therefore, all baroque composers ARE dead. All that exists now is composers who try to imitate the style of a particular period of time written by certain composers.

There is no point to play with words, you all understand what i mean by baroque composer, ( one who composes baroque music )

There is no point in using words for what they do not represent. When we say "baroque composer", we mean a composer who lived and composed music during the Baroque era:

"Baroque music describes a period or style of European classical music approximately extending from 1600 to 1750."

What's the year today? 2009 CE. Thus, the Baroque era is scientifically, historically, culturally, socially, physically, mentally and really over. It WAS, and is no more.

Now what are you trying to persuade us of? That we are making a play with words? Or that you fail to understand the meaning of words?