Night and Revelation

Noche y Revelacion

Opus 24

for Orchestra.

One of the very first things that I came to YC for, was asking for advices on how to make the orchestral works get performed, that time I showed a tiny excerpt of a work that is by all means, huge.

The best and easier advice was that I should write for a smaller orchestra, and that’s makes perfect sense because will be difficult to find a large orchestra willing to perform a big piece from an unknown composer so that’s what I did.

These were the main aspects I decided to follow:

- A perfect normal size orchestra, with no need of a single extra player (maybe percussionists)

- Short in length (I thought in 10-12 min, but I wrote 16 min)

- Easy to play and to listen for common audiences

- (Able to create a recording with my current software)

This work has two sections, the soft one and the hard one….

The Night: (0:00 - 8:40)

An atmosphere of mystery and quietness, I use some elements similar to those 70’s movies soundtracks (Airport 77 etc …) like the deep horns and the very high violins (The highest note in the score is a Ab6, I double checked with my two violins and the highest note possible without playing beyond the fingerboard is precisely a G#/Ab so I don’t think is “unplayable” because the melody is slow)

The Revelation: (8:40 - 15:50)

War Music…. I still cannot compose an orchestral work without a war/military segment, each time I write something loud I end writing music has a clearly war ambient. This is actually very easy to me to write, it took me only 25% of the total time I spend writing this work, the “night” part took me months… the only part I found a little difficult in this second part was the to build a proper “decrescendo” after the greatest climax, different to all my previous orchestral works I end in softness but still in the “minor” I love so much, (with my signature very clear).

Some loud segments may seem to some of you as a bunch of notes and nothing more but, believe me when I say, that’s the way I like it.

I accept comments and reviews of course but just one thing …. I’ve seen member posting music like Mozart and others giving advices to write like Boulez, those advices are obviously rejected by the composer and all that just make to seem the composer as a fool for ignoring those precious comments ….

Recording & Score here

Sequenced on Sibelius 6

Recorded on Cubase SX 3

Samples by EDIROL Orchestral

Additional Percussion samples from my own library

Hope you like it

hi

I like the dark tone of the opening. Listening jst to the sound I can hear you didn't write the slurs yet. Its a bit artificial sometimes yet. I heard (very early in the piece) a kind of trumpet (muted?) witch sounded unnatural (maybe jazz or pop patches while i'd expect a more classical sound?) .

Maybe because of the lots of reverb? I usualy like my MP3's dry. Makes it more easy to listen to the details.

I imagine you are looking for a blurry effect, with those nice harmonies. It has a movieish tone.

One orchestrational thing. At the end of the night there is a oboe+clarinet (?) melody emerging from the massive chords. I would make it a single instrument, preferably oboe... But this might be matter of taste.

What I liked about the Night was its slowness; but when the Revelation started I was a bit bored. Because of the slow harmonic progression. I wanted to hear something new (like the faster string section thereafter)

Ok, I'll stop commenting. I like your harmonic language, its a bit similar to mine :)

yeah the EDIROL sounds are not excellent .... but you'll have a more clear idea of everything reading the score ...

Maybe the reverb is a bit excesive,

here is a 2nd render with less reverb

thanks for listening ....

(the Render 2 has been removed,)

the thread has been seen 42 times, the file has been heard 13 times and only 1 comment..

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Ok, I understand you cannot review without the score so I post it just as I have it now...

I had a bad habit of never writing the slurs, so as the first time, the slurs might be wrong or even ugly ....

Now is the score available

I like the version with less reverb better.

You have a very good sense of development and harmony, I quite like the first half. Would have to see the score to judge the orchestration.

It has the feel of a slow introduction to a 70s or 80s movie (in a good way!).

WITHOUT seeing the score, the one thing I would be a little worried about is that for the first 3 minutes (before the grand pause and brass entrance) you use the bass voices of the orchestra nonstop. And, in the next section, you use the percussion quite steadily. Either of these effects may end up tiring the ear, live - it depends...

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Ha, awesome! Listening with the score now.

well, now with the score check it because the recording may lie about how would it be in live concert ....

I think it would sound very interesting the first part and very strong the second ...

I only worry about the final decrescendo, it may be achieved correctly ONLY by a very good conductor.

EDIT:

If you have troubles viewing the score with the "preview" button try "download" or tell me if you're unable to see it

Daniel, some unorganized notes on your score:

Your dark string writing at the beginning is ingenious and will come out very well.

In the woodwinds and brass, I have seen Arab numerals (1. and 2.) more than Roman numerals (I and II) for marking where only 1 instrument plays.

IF! you intend the timpani to do a "drag" pattern (like a snare) rather than measured sixteenths, it is better to notate like this:

On page 6 you put TWO octaves between the violins. Writing them in 8ves is fine but putting an empty 8ve between will make it sound "thin." I would write the 2nds an 8ve higher as well, OR (my preference) bring the 1sts down an octave. Don't worry they will still "sound" very high as they are in fingerboard positions on their tense E strings. I am not a violinist but writing them as high as you do currently, looks excessive to me.

BTW, I would also reinforce this melody with a flute or oboe, either would work fine.

From page 6-9 the harmonies you use are wonderful.

On page 9 those are high entrnaces (especially horn) for pp, and the horn goes even higher. The flutes will be more or less inaudible, playing in their low register, against brass.

The return of the theme on p16 is very nice. However - again, the flutes will be inaudible here. In a tutti (strings+brass+winds) you can't score the flutes in their bottom octave, it usually won't sound.

I also think that the solo trumpet, throughout, will not be anywhere near as quiet as he in this mix. Turn the trumpet sound way up and see if you still like the part.

I really like the trumpet on p21 however.

On page 25 you've got a nice setup but I really think the EH needs reinforcement. At the least, write the cue in the clarinets, and let's see, bassoons? And in rehearsal if it's too weak you can assign those instruments to help out.

I have to say I did not like the "war" section AT ALL. It is much less imaginative in all ways - harmony, composition, and orchestration. Although, I did like the way you gradually orchestrated the decrescendo on page 76-80.

However, I dislike the whole thing, to the point where I would split off the "Noche" section and have that played in concert by itself. It's truly wonderful, and self-contained, and has some really dreamy/jazzy moments. I am printing out that section of teh score to study your harmonies :)

One more note about the final decrescendo - it would be even better if you used hairpins (>), this creates a gradual decrescendo rather than you simply writing "f, then mf, then p".

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Oh and one more thing - can you give us a score in Concert Pitch?

Much easier to read :)

Yes I can give you the concert pitch, (I have used to read it in that way ...)(you should get used too )

The orchestration of the 2nd part goes against of many orchestral methods, ... but I could call that "my style" ...

What you say about the Timpani is in Page 16 ????

no, the Tuplet is correct, that's the exact measure and accents way to played ...

The Violins are in octaves without a whole octave in the middle, .... that will make a nice effect, different from the common octaved melody in Violins ..... something like using Flute 8' + Flute 2' in Pipe organ (without any Flute 4')

On page 9, I might change the horns a little down .... but I do want the english horn alone.... (it can be playable the way it is, but with difficulty .... yes I know that)

Thanks so much Weca for your review .... I promise, next time it will be more like a single work and not like 2 works in one.

EDIT:

To be honest, I like more the second part than the first, that's why I wrote it because I wanted more action in my work not just the "Night".

Okay, honesty time... and hopefully this will be helpful.

First, overall, I think the work is film-esque. It would make for a great soundtrack to a movie or game (maybe even an audio book or some lengthy online commercial). So, keeping perspective in mind (that I like this 'for' that kind of genre), I want to just make sure to begin with a positive. You've put a lot of work and thought into this, I can tell. I think your ideas have grit and hold interest. So, these are all positive things that should be said... from beginning to end, you held my interest either with your sonorities in Part I or your intensity and (what I'll call) your 'vamping' of the rhythmic pattern in Part II. I'll dissect some of these things for each part below, but I've also got to bring you back to earth just a bit.

A 15 minute piece is not 'short' in the professional performance arena. I have a 5'30" piece (Eternal, posted in this forum) that is likely too long to be programmed by a majority of professional groups. If I wanted to get an orchestra to read my work, I'd probably get 'some of it' read, maybe 2-3 minutes of it. Only if I was very lucky would the whole piece be read by a professional group from beginning to end (if the conductor asked the performers to remain an extra couple of minutes to read the whole thing and the performers agreed to rehearse it 'for free' - and performers like to get paid, they WILL make a fuss if they don't like the whole work). My strategy is to get the conductor and performers to just read 'some of the work' and 'want to hear the rest' as they are reading it. It's a longshot, but it's worth it if it works. I want my music to be convincing enough for performers to 'want' to keep playing it...

This is your 'criteria'

These were the main aspects I decided to follow:

• A perfect normal size orchestra, with no need of a single extra player (maybe percussionists)
  
• Short in length (I thought in 10-12 min, but I wrote 16 min :toothygrin: )
  
• Easy to play and to listen for common audiences
  
• (Able to create a recording with my current software)
  

From a perspective of 'performance', the work is far too repetitive... you'll get a couple of minutes of reading time, professional performers will likely catch on to how repetitive the work is, and they may feel a little disappointed or disinterested. It's not about the sound or the quality of the work... I'm just trying to point out that this piece, when performers look at it, is going to be viewed upon with entirely different lenses. So, 'variation' and 'interest' are 'key' ingredients here that I just want to touch on. My suggestions are only 'suggestions', don't look at this as 'your piece sucks, this is better'... all I'm looking for are ways to create more variety in different sections of the ensemble where this repetition is taking place so your performers will not only love 'hearing' your piece, they'll love 'playing' it.

Minor Score Edit Note: F Horns, when arranged on two staves, are traditionally grouped 1st & 3rd Horns on one staff, 2nd and 4th Horns on the next staff. I don't know if you were aware of this, I just wanted to make sure to mention it.

Part I

Strings (mm 1-22): You have the same, exact rhythm for 22 measures. I realize this is a mood-setting event, but you can break up some of the monotony through imitating the rhythmic events between the violins and violas. You might even like the sound of inverting some of your harmonies (keep the chords you have, just play with when the individual pitches sound and break those pitches up among the different string sections). You can create a 'sound-wave' from section to section which would be REALLY neat to hear from playing inside the orchestra, even if it caters more to the performers than to the audience.

Brass (mm 23-40): Here you have some whole notes sustaining some harmony with 3rd Tpt and Tbn playing some scalar linear material somewhat sporadically. It might be more musically convincing for those lines to have maybe just a little more melodic shape to work contrapuntally with the other families of the orchestra in those measures. You could state in the 3rd Tpt/Tbn the beginnings of this contrapuntal material, then use the horns, 1st and 2nd tbns, and maybe solo 1st Tpt in the upper register to sort of reinforce this activity... which reinforces the purpose of the original lines you have dedicated just to the 3rd tpt and tbn.

Woodwinds (mm 1-40): I'm just kind of bored with the use of the Piccolo and Flute... I think the 40+piece string orchestra is going to drown out most of your homophonic woodwind activity. What's interesting though, is you have nothing really doing much to reinforce the harp or dance around it other than the glock in the percussion. And night is a perfect time for little gestures like the Celeste/Glock (have you considered a Celeste instead of a Glockenspiel for that gesture, by the way?) to be reinforced by flutes and a piccolo. Let your Clarinets create some imitations of those gestures as well, deliver some real 'depth' to your 'Night'. And really try to develop that glock gesture more... give it a story, let it prance a little... give it more 'life'. Use the woodwinds to help you deliver that gestural component more convincingly so it doesn't feel so 'haphazardly placed.' Does that make sense?

Percussion - in general, they don't really care in orchestra. They're happy playing something interesting, they're happy not playing at all. They're probably the group in an orchestra you can abuse the most... so I'll leave all of that up to you.

Now, I've commented on Part I. If you want my comments on Part II, reply and I'll offer them. If this isn't helping you, then I'll stop here.

The Violins are in octaves without a whole octave in the middle, .... that will make a nice effect, different from the common octaved melody in Violins ..... something like using Flute 8' + Flute 2' in Pipe organ (without any Flute 4')

That is a nice orchestration on an organ. for 2 violins it might work as well...

Thanks Antiatonality, Yes I want your review on Part II...

about what you have said ...

I was thinking in showing the score and recording to a conductor only, which is who decides (at least in the orchestras I know) I didn't think in how tedious may look the part by separate ..... and you're right, if I show the Contrabassoon part to the C-Bassoon player I'm sure he will not have any interest on performing this, (contrabassoon and many others) ....

The Lenght, ok I will write a shorter piece, 7 is ok ? 3 is too short for me, not even my Electronic Pop/Dance pieces are that short ... (you can find them in the Electronic Section of YC) but I'll think about it ..

The brass segment I'm seriuoly considering in editing that part a little ... you'll know if I post a new score with little changes...

About the Celesta, I agree completely, in the night part would be better that the Glock but I didn't wanted to include one more instrument ...

You don't know if you know this but my usual and minimum orchestra size that I call "DMA Army" have a 2nd english horn, 2nd bass Clarinet, 2nd Contrabasoon, 4th Trumpet, 4th Trombone, 2nd Timpani Set, aaaaaaaannnnndddd Piano

for me reducing the orchestra at the size you see in this piece was already an aspect I had to adapt, I think I did it well.

The large Strings Section (15,15,13 etc) is an error in the score, .... I didn't edit that part, those number of strings are from the larg orchestra I usually use, I will delete that right now.

I know some part will not be heard (Flute parts mainly) in the way are written, it will sound just like in the recording, ... I'll check the importance of what those instruments are playing in that particular part and see If I decide to edit something.

Thank you all for your comments...

I found upon first listen that it was not... clear enough. At least the MP3 wasn't. What I mean by that is I think you need to make the non-moving parts quieter, to better distinguish the melody. I'll give the whole thing a listen again and tell you what I think.

Listen the 2nd render with less Reverb, that may help

2nd Render here

This render has been deleted, listen the final existent one

Oh and one more thing - can you give us a score in Concert Pitch?

Much easier to read :)

Ok Weca, here it is, in Concert Pitch, all written in C, (if you still want it)

Noche y Revelacion Score in C

Yes, that helps a lot! Up until the pause, this song is great in the fact that its mysterious and it does symbolize night a lot. But after about thirty seconds to a minute, it gets boring because you don't know where it's going. I liked when the violins and bells (tubular and glockenspiel) parts came in because they added interest, but again it didn't leave me with anything when we got to the pause.

After the pause I liked a lot more. The backgrounds moved, making it a lot more moving and flowing, and the melody was more memorable. I especially loved he english horn solo! When it went back to the first theme though, I found that the violin background was muddled and too loud/overpowering.

I stopped listening here, because I didn't want to listen for 80 pages (not due to the song, due to the length) Overall I felt you should make the dynamics better so as to move the piece, and let melodies be heard (though this isn't really your fault but the programs maybe) and add more movement to your backgrounds.

Once the 2nd part has been startet, the pages goes fast, and you won't feel they were another 7 more minutes, ....

Yes, dynamics, ... well the recording still leaves very much to expect, but I'm seeing the making of a better one.

Thanks for commenting.

Thanks Antiatonality, Yes I want your review on Part II...

Okay, but first...

about what you have said ...

I was thinking in showing the score and recording to a conductor only, which is who decides (at least in the orchestras I know) I didn't think in how tedious may look the part by separate ..... and you're right, if I show the Contrabassoon part to the C-Bassoon player I'm sure he will not have any interest on performing this, (contrabassoon and many others) ....

Most of the ways 'into' getting a meeting with the conductor of a professional orchestra are through performers in the orchestra. My contact in the professional orchestra where I plan on attempting a reading is a French Horn player (first chair of the section). Still, even this is as much of a long shot as not having that contact.

The Lenght, ok I will write a shorter piece, 7 is ok ? 3 is too short for me, not even my Electronic Pop/Dance pieces are that short ... (you can find them in the Electronic Section of YC) but I'll think about it ..

I'd say giving a conductor a 'taste' of what you can do with his ensemble can be done in 2-5 minutes. That's all you really should be attempting. This is a large-scale work. I would actually encourage you to break this piece up into two movements (Part I and Part II) and let the conductor decide what s/he wants to hear most if I were going to attempt to get a reading out of this piece. I would also encourage you to take out some of the areas where you're repeating a large area of music. You know these areas I'm referring to as you do this in both parts.

Then, focus in on the areas you really like and see if you can come up with something more for players to do. Get both sections down to about 5 minutes and you'll have two 'readable' works that 'might' be programmed if the conductor and music director discuss and agree on it. It could lead to commissions down the road for you.

The brass segment I'm seriously considering in editing that part a little ...

If you don't edit it, you could also consider cutting it if it serves no purpose for your work.

About the Celesta, I agree completely, in the night part would be better than the Glock but I didn't wanted to include one more instrument ...

Simply indicate that the Celesta plays the part instead of the Glock, or indicate two players for the part instead of one and copy it over to another layer in the staff. Percussionists are used to being 'abused' like this... happens all the time.

I know some part will not be heard (Flute parts mainly) in the way they are written, it will sound just like in the recording, ... I'll check the importance of what those instruments are playing in that particular part and see if I decide to edit something.

Like I said, you can always reinforce other instruments (the Celesta, the Harp, etc) with Woodwinds. I don't think you're using those instruments in your orchestration to their greatest effect in those particular sections I mentioned. The strings will most assuredly drown them out.

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Part II

Okay, so Copy/Paste is useful and all, but it's very noticeable when and where you do it. That's a problem. Even if this were 'incidental' concert music, it would be too much repetition without any variance. So, I think I'll try to talk about four component (or composite) ideas that concern me about this section: The 12/8 pulse pattern (the "Pattern"), 'Cluster Harmony', the sequenced tuplet figure in the Strings/Woodwinds (ex. m 148), and the brass entrance with the Trombones, also in m 148. So, let's see what happens to these ideas...

The "Pattern"

One good thing you do with this happens in m 174... the trumpets and horns take this dotted quarter note figure from the Flutes. Unfortunately, no one knows that the Flutes introduced this to begin with because... the entire orchestra is drowning them out. Instead, take out the low brass, Cellos, Double Bass, and Second Violins. Gut the orchestration a LOT at m 170 and you'll achieve exactly what you're trying to do here.

Don't repeat this whole section again without doing something drastically different to it in its next entrance. Even Williams or Horner would put this kind of idea in a different key or play with the harmony... speaking of which...

Cluster Harmony

I loved hearing this... the first time. The second time, it was 'still okay'. The third time I'm considering this to be something Postminimalist... I'm in the groove... but by the what, TENTH, TWELFTH TIME(?!)... I'm GAGGING! You effectively took an idea I like and made me hate it through repetition. I don't think that's what you want. I think what you're trying to do is make this idea generate more intensity. In its current state, it's a 'cell', an idea that's just a placeholder for music you haven't thought of yet or produced from this Cluster Harmony. You should take this idea, make some sketches of it, play with the pitches, various transpositions, mutate it with some rhythmic variance, play with inverting the pitches of the harmony, make it soft, make it HUGE and LOUD, augment the harmony, add more to the progression of the harmony, shorten it by taking a fragment from it (then develop the fragment), and take from all these various ideas the ones you like best. For each cell you've created where you've copy/pasted, insert a development of this idea.

The Sequenced Tuplet and Trombones (starting in m 148)

Again, the repetition is killing you... here, your use of sequencing is hindering the musical interest you're trying to generate. I bet you're so attached to this idea that you can't see changing it without changing your favorite part of the work. If you keep it, I think the repetition will undo the effect.

Sequencing works just like any small or large 'section' of music. Repeating the sequence more than twice creates redundancy. Redundancy is the enemy of Interest because you lose Variance. Before you say, "Oh, dude, piss off!" just understand that what you're doing is so incredibly easy to fix.

The sequenced pattern is 5 tuplets descending with the last pitch ascending an interval of a 2nd. Cool. You do it again, sequencing down. Cool. You even do it again, sequencing down again. This 'works' if you change the last sequenced pattern, or you can change the third and revert back to the fourth. I would not consider leaving it how it is... simply because the line is so exposed. It might not matter if this line was in support of something else. The problem is that the Trombone figure is becoming 'lost in the translation' here... it's carrying on a supporting role for the violins like it's a counter-melody to them... and that's exposing the redundancy in the sequencing of the figure.

If the low brass were playing more than a contrapuntal line that comes out of nowhere, it might reduce the exposure in the violins. But you would need something familiar that the low brass could bring to the listener's memory to take the ear away from hearing this as 'repetition' of the same idea. So, that's what I can give you as some ideas for what isn't working about Part II. Variance is really what will make this section as 'intense' and 'dramatic' as you're trying to make it.

Good luck with your edits.

I Thank you so much mainly because the time you had to spend to examinate and post your review.... seems that nobody else is willing to do that, if you can do this often, I'll tell Jen or Chopin that makes you a reviewer, because sometimes there is very few response to the works posted by members, and you review is well made.

This will be the first time that I re-write a passage, and that edit will be tiny, or should I say "was" (because I already edited all what I'm going to edit)...

There was a problem here, in the 2nd part ..... I didn't have enough time to develop the war music well enough before re-starting, and it certainly returns too quickly and the idea of the starting motif has not been erased so it sounds repetitive ....

Besides the tiny change in the pp high horns, nothing more will be changed, I hope you don't take this action as an obvious disagreement to your review or ignoring good advices from a fellow composer, but I "Believe" in what I wrote, I have a clear sound in my mind of how exactly this will sounds, and that sound satisfies me.

The things you "would" change are defined with your own composition method, that I respect, and like a said, I appressiate your ideas and I ask you to understand my reasons of why I won't edit all the things you would like me to see editing.

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For the next work I have already thought in something of 3-5 minutes, you'll see it in YC very soon

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For all members.....

I will make a visual explanation, take a look to the next pics

now this:

The first one.....

Deep colors in a smooth nice mix, curved, not straight lines, carefully designed to produce a tasteful result.

The second one ....

A raw image, with no colors but 2, very much straight lines, no feelings, dry, hard, and cold, not very much "pleasurable", just strong "meanings".

maybe my mistake was to create a work that changes in a "too drastic" way, well, that only describes one thing .... me, I can be the pic 1, and the pic 2 also ....

Thanks all for listening, I'll post the final version of the score soon, is just that writing the slurs is the most tedious job I've done with Sibelius..... :D

haha, nice pictures!

But I wonder, what is the relation between the two movements if they are so entirely different?

Means that I was hidden in the night (nobody knows me) and I revel myself (if the work gets performed) to the world ....

I dont write stories, but if there are stories behind a piece I like to know them. Thats why I asked :) So now I know about the connection between the two. Is is ok if I aks further?

Why is your revelation war-like? Do you identify yourself with combat?

Why is the time of 'not-knowing you', I quote "deep colors in a smooth nice mix, curved, not straight lines, carefully designed to produce a tasteful result."

You also said "I can be the pic 1, and the pic 2 also ...". That seems to contradict the statement that Night was about you being hidden, nobody knows you...

Maybe I'm pressing the images? :toothygrin:

it is a decent music

Darkangel-hero from the dark

Why is your revelation war-like? Do you identify yourself with combat?

Absolutely Yes ...

see this from the thread Off-topic -> Pictures:

My room (about 2 years ago) .....

[...]

How many war-related things do you see in the picture ?

Why is the time of 'not-knowing you',

Because I think is time to start what I could call "my career" as a composer ... by the performance of my works ..

"I can be the pic 1, and the pic 2 also ...". That seems to contradict the statement that Night was about you being hidden, nobody knows you...

Let's change that to "I was sleeping and now I wake up"

Darkangel-hero from the dark

Sorry milady but I didn't understand that :D

Thanks for commenting anyway :thumbsup:

cool pic of your room :)

I know I might have been pressing the images. sorry for that :) and thanks for the clarification.

The final versions of the Score and the Recording have been updated.

(I may fix those ugly slurs someday, but, for the moment, this issue it's done.)

EDIT:

by saying "this issue it's done" that doesn't mean you have to stop posting :)