Coping with Chamber Orchestra Limitations - No Low Brass

Hey guys: Lately I've been trying to cope with the lack of low brass in the typical chamber ensemble. Maybe some of you have dealt with that before? For instance:

1. How hesitant, in you guys' experience, are chamber ensembles just to hire two or three trombonists to augment their normal ensemble? Or would that totally throw a piece out of their normal price range?

2. Are the clarinetists and bassoonists in chamber ensembles accustomed to doubling like their symphonic counterparts? For instance, could I get that second clarinetist to pick up a bass clarinet or get the second bassoonist to pick up that contrabassoon and - don't laugh - make a sporting pass at my bass trombone line? (Okay, so that could be scary, but what about saxes?)

And 3. (This really isn't a chamber question but I'll give it a whirl.) When a piece uses only two bones, is it reasonable to ask the second chair to double on bass bone? Or is that always the exclusive province of the third chair?

It's just that the piece I'm planning is a chamber symphonic-jazz hybrid and, well... I'm not exactly keen on hearing a timpani bottom out my jazz block. :-)

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Actually, I should have said "chamber orchestra" and not chamber ensemble... Oh well... You all know what I mean.

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I am not saure if I understand your question correctly. What is the chamber ensemble consisiting of. I would start saying that 2 or 3 trombones could really cause serious balance issues, drowning all the others... So I need a bit more clarification

(Laughs) Sorry for the confusion. Where I said "Chamber Ensemble" I really meant "Chamber Orchestra." You see, I'm trying to gauge how much I can get away with augmenting the brass section beyond the normal two trumpets and four horns those orchestras use, without making them dismiss the piece out-of-hand as too expensive to produce. (Yeah though, you're right - hearing three trombones with a chamber "ensemble" or quartet could make for some most interesting issues of balance!)

Thanks for the answer. But still. What do you add to the strings? for example: is it only 2 flutes and 2 clarinets or a complete double woodwind section? You also could have one of the following: flute, oboe, cla, bsn, hrn, trp, trb. This way you have a broader range to add color, give solo's etc.

I do not know of a "typical chamber orchestra" I'd say the choice is yours.

BTW How low do you need? The horns can get quite low, and from the brass instruments it mixes the best with the woodwind section.

Thanks for the answer. But still. What do you add to the strings?

Well, the tentative instrumentation I'm wanting is 1.1.1.1 - 2.2.2.0 - Timp.Trap - Pno - Strings (min 4.4.3.3.2). My reason for wanting to augment the lower brass is just because the piece is a symphonic-jazz hybrid. It seems like it might sound a bit corny without some lower brass in a few really brassy parts (or at least some lower saxophones, but even those wouldn't quite have the thunder I'd like in the other, less jazzy moments).

Truth be told, I'm trying to figure out how many bones (or perhaps saxes) I can get away with adding without a chamber orchestra conductor trashing the manuscript as unbudgetable the minute it comes across his desk for consideration.

And I can't help but wonder if adding those bones might just push the power of the ensemble high enough that I could pitch the piece to both symphonic AND chamber orchestras, maximizing its production prospects. Is this too lofty a quest, you think?

The best example of no trombones ever: Mahler Symphony No. 4. One doesn't miss the trombones, but I think he could have used them some places. But that's my bias being bred on the Trombone for years.

What's the full instrumentation you're dealing with? And what kind of ensemble is it (as in skill level and funds)?because you could gauge flexibility that way.

Thanks for the tip on Mahler's 4th! Will give it a close listen.

As for the funding of the ensemble, your guess is as good as mine. Since the piece isn't a commission, I'm just trying to think prospectively like a conductor - would I dismiss it the second I saw it called for nonsalaried members beyond my normal ensemble?

And say - since you're an accomplished trombonist yourself: When you guys play in [larger, non-chamber] brass sections, and when the piece calls for only one or two trombones, is it alright to have the first or second trombone chair playing bass trombone? Or does symphonic hierarchy dictate that only third chairs do that?

Truth be told, I'm trying to figure out how many bones (or perhaps saxes) I can get away with adding without a chamber orchestra conductor trashing the manuscript as unbudgetable the minute it comes across his desk for consideration.

If you want bones, maybe you should trade that for a woodwind player. just brass and strings. I know Hindemith has done a piece like this.

Or maybe you can trade a clarinet or bassoon for say a tenor sax. Vaughan Williams 6th sym. adds a ten.sax. Maybe you can take a closer look to the score to see if it replaces a cla/bsn part.

Usually, if there's only two bones, the 2nd player will be eliminated and the 3rd (Bass) player will jump to 2nd. (That is, of course, if the 2nd part requires a bass trombone). The numbers are pretty arbitrary that way. It solely depends on what the piece calls for. Any ensemble that has a bass trombone and plays a piece that uses it will use it.

Ah, got it. I just have to make sure to list Tbn 2 as "Bs Tbn" and not assume the bottom chair will assume he plays bs. Thanks.