Ave Maris Stella

Hi, I recently got Miroslav Philarmonic CE, it comes with a Choir, so I decided to make a work for choir. My initial thought was a very meditative pieces, no fast stuff. This is the first time I write for SATB Choir, and I found it very difficult to do. What I first imagined on my mind was better than this but, that's what I could do :D I made two renders, one is just miroslav, and the other is miroslav choir and strings + piano from GPO v.1

Ave Maris Stella

This is very pretty but, I've got to be honest with you, I find it hard to get very excited by this music. It was really rather lugubrious after a while and no way was there enough development or contrast to keep it interesting all the way through the piece. The string parts in particular are unimaginative and would be quite boring to play by a live orchestra. Bb minor is not a great key for strings (although at the speed this music is at, it's not really going to pose much of a technical problem) but the main objection I have is that apart from at the very opening, you use the entire string section all the time, and with all sections divided! The result is an unrelenting mush of sound with no textural, timbral or dynamic contrast - strings really don't like playing long notes for long periods of time. Try playing or singing through one of the parts and you'll see what I mean. You could create some really interesting effects by having some of the sections not play whilst others divide for a particular passage, or use the different characteristics of the different instruments. And even if you do need the entire orchestra playing all the time, you could have saved the divisi for more rich passages to create some contrast, and written more rhythmically independant parts. What the strings play here could just as easily be done on an organ or, if it could sustain long enough, the piano already in the score. You also need to specify in the score that the contrabasses will need a C extention, as not all instruments can play below E.

Tonally, the music hardly goes anywhere. The chords are all very 'thick' and all in the same sort of range - again you could vary this to make the piece more interesting - and more significantly, very few of them contain any accidentals, which is effectively the same as playing the same notes over and over in different combinations, resulting in almost no difference between how the chords sound. There is a modulation to a different key for a few bars but it doesn't sound as if it is a natural progression from the previous material and in any case you get back pretty quickly to the original key. Most of all, no real definitive climax to the piece. The loudest the choir or orchestra get is mp, and as I've explained, there is no sense of tonal arrival.

There is also very little contrast in rhythm in either the string or the choir parts. The chords move either on the first or the third beat of the bar with few exceptions. The piano has a little more rythmic freedom but as the underlying harmonies are so predictable it isn't enough to overcome this. Almost no counterpoint anywhere expect for a little simple imitation in the choir parts at times. What about some word-painting?

I'm sorry if all this sounds harsh, but whilst this style of music sounds nice I find it to be quite limited and to have a great many inherant problems. Whilst it is easy and probably very satisfying to write, it is hard to be very original and to avoid sounding like certain composers (i.e. Morton Lauridsen, John Taverner and Eric Whitacre, althouh he's made a little effort to be more original) and the resulting piece is almost always slow and over-rich, like binging on too much Belgian chocolate in an eternal hot bath, and sounds like every other piece ever written in this style. So I would urge you to experiment with writing in a more original style, however one goes about that.

Thank you very much for you review, I never post in choral so I suppose I look like new here :D , I have to say I do agree with most of what you say, actually I already knew all that. Development, contrast, modulation. This is the first work I do in this kind of "style" could we call it ? , I have to say I was totally focused or should I say "worried" by the choir and that reduced the rest to a mere background, like a synth-strings or something. I don't know those guys you mention, but I do know Gorecki, he also has received that kind of critics, I suppose many find his music "boring", actually it is very easy to find it boring.

Using divisi all the times is ok, Will it be boring to the players ? Of course it will, but players have that problem very often, will not just be me, I suppose this will seem like 20 minutes for them :laugh:

I did try string textures, but didn't work fine, why ? hard to answer... I delete it and continued with the same ambient. This is not a loud piece, but I will change that mp, I think it used it for the playback response.

There is a different way to listen this, when you just rest and don't expect anything, this is usually not the "default" way a person listen music, and compose music for that, is always kinda risky, I have other pieces, electronic, very, very static, and sometimes I find them boring myself :P , but sometimes, I just sit, wear my earphones, close the eyes, and listen, don't move, don't watch, do nothing, just listen the slowness, and a very different effect happens, I can't explain it well, like a meditation state, of course, you need time, quietness, etc, but is no impossible....

I don't want my reply sounds like excuses to to take down the points you mention, like I said, I agree with most of it, I would have perhaps written the same if I would be reviewing this piece, but this work had only one purpose, try myself writing for choir (that I'm used to have more than 4 voices) test the choir samples in miroslav, and don't stuck in this too long writing a very dedicated piece...

(also the vocal samples, without expression, without lyric, make this more static, string weren't as good as I expected either.... gotta get VSL... )

Thanks for listening, and I invite you do listen some other work by me, to kick off the "staticness" this gave you, pick one form my signature, perhaps the Op.31, the lastest orch tone poem, you're gonna find all what you didn't find here.

A simple Gorecki imitation...

good work, nice harmoies and sound Perhaps the rhythmic patterns are a bit repetitive,Perhaps the rhythmic patterns are a bit repetitive.

Compliments for this piece

Thanks.

A simple Gorecki imitation...

I know Gorecki's works, and the style is like his, yes, but is not a "simple imitation" unless there is a work I don't know, sounding very very much like this one.... I know Miserere, Amen, Szeroka woda, Beatus Vir. Wislo moja wislo szara, Totus Tuus, Symphonies 2,3, Kleine requiem and others I don't recall the name.

Hi,

I listened to your piece already last week, or better said, I tried to listen to it. The first impression I got was a Waw! Fantastic!!! the Second impression however was less fantastic. I like the opening bars, but it seems to me that your score or scoring needs work. I can see where you are heading toward, yet ... it is not as it should be. I think it has been said before but the entire intertwining of your music makes it not very transparant. And indeed the orchestra keeps on playing the all time, which the second time worked a bit on my nerves.

Aside from that ... you call your piece Ave Maria Stella, which is a joyful text. I do not know whether you understand the text - there are plenty of good translations available on the internet - yet, you let it sound as a death mass. For me, but that is just me, the correlation text - music does not work.

Nevertheless, good job, although some work is required.

Kind regards

W.S.

My father speaks Latin and told me the translation, something more joyful surely would work better... looks like this is really testing the patience of all of you isn't it ? :P

I will keep receiveing you opinions, and avoid all those things in the next choral project, this one I'm afraid will remain like it is :sleep: unless a brilliant idea comes suddenly to my mind....

I did try to break the steadiness, I wrote some bars and then didn't work, I delete and wrote again and didn't work either, somehow I understood it had to keep going like that.

I don't think I would change the Choir part, but I'll try to imagine what would I do with the strings...

Thanks for listening.

I definitely agree with siwi on this. Its to statically full to really go anywhere. Thin it out a little bit, create more movement and allow it to thicken up for certain climactic points.

I must say though, I absolutely LOVED your key changes! They gave me chills :)

Key changes ? the Bbm to Cm to Bbm ?

Thanks for listening.

THis is fine if you are aiming for Gorecki-like style, it is more static than Gorecki in spite of the fact you have much activity among the entrances and exits of the chorus, strings and piano. Yet as said in earlier post with in these groups there isn't much textural change - except for the piano at the end. This leaves me wondering - what is the process of your piece? Even in such static music as Eno's Thursday Afternoon, there is a process. In Thursday Afternoon, the music is repeated but with certain aspects highlighted very subtely when they are heard again - and sometimes they are repeated.

I don't think the piano will resound as much as you think unless you play the thing in a cathedral (which is what the sound library uses for reverb).

Anyway nice work - I'd like to learn more about ho9w your composed this piece though and return to this on a closer listen.

I think I will edit the strings part, add a bit of movement, will remain static it just will be less boring to play ...

I don't know how could I describe my style, because I compose a wide variety o music, and this one is made to create that state of calmness is difficult to describe, I tried here:

There is a different way to listen this, when you just rest and don't expect anything, this is usually not the "default" way a person listen music, and compose music for that, is always kinda risky, I have other pieces, electronic, very, very static, and sometimes I find them boring myself :P , but sometimes, I just sit, wear my earphones, close the eyes, and listen, don't move, don't watch, do nothing, just listen the slowness, and a very different effect happens, I can't explain it well, like a meditation state, of course, you need time, quietness, etc, but is no impossible....

About the piano, the miroslav render sounds like in a Cathedral yes, I think the GPO one sounds more realistic, but will work.

I won't edit this right now because I have other works in my head, but I will edit the strings, and check the whole thing.

Thanks for listening and commenting.

Key changes ? the Bbm to Cm to Bbm ?

Yes, those would be key changes

ah yes, :D those are key changes

Not bad, I think, but if you would like this to be performed sometime, don't let the sopranos start on an as'' in piano... that 's just asking for trouble...

I do have to agree with Siwi as well. The sound is very beautiful, but very very....unimaginative. Also, there are some technical problems I see for the choir (like having the sopranos hold an A for that long is simply exhausting, especially when you expect them to continue singing.) But, for a first choral work it's not horrifying...just obviously a first choral work lol.

Thanks for listening and commenting.

I'm not a singer, i sang as a child but never professionally, I don't think there are so much troubles with the initial A, and holding it, and is Ab btw..

The main purpose on this was to test the miroslav choir but I will do a revision on this work because it does deserves it.

I have to disagree with almost all the previous commenters. Your piece is very beautiful and serene, and adding more "interest" to the orchestral parts would destroy the atmosphere of quiet contemplation. The only thing I do agree with is that it's difficult for sopranos to hold an Ab for so long. Please don't change it too much. But then, I'm a big fan of John Taverner and composers like him.

Thank you for listening and commenting,

I plan to do a revision on this piece as soon as I have time, I only will do some changes in the strings, to make them easier at bowing, all notes are currently too long, is playable but still I will make the string players to move their arms a little more, but ambient, harmony, structure and everything else will remain like it is now.

I am a high, somewhat light voiced soprano, and even for me, the A-flats hold out for waaayyyyy too long, especially for being piano. Then later there are B-flats. If this is recorded, it might be fine.. lots of stop and go, but for a live performance, it would be really taxing on the voice. It sounds kinda cool, but is very unrealistic.