Theory Challenge

Can you, using each of the 12 notes of the chromatic scale only once, represent the following 6 intervals: minor second, major second, minor third, major third, fourth, and augmented 4th.

I was trying to figure this out today, and I don't think it can be done. I couldn't figure out anyway to apply math to the problem, but maybe someone here can.

I posted the idea in this thread because I am trying to find interesting ways to come up with a tone row for writing something atonal. (the idea is to use all 12 notes before repeating any of them.) If anyone has any suggestions for how to do this I would love to hear those as well.

C-B-Db-Bb-D-A-Eb (Ab-E-G-F-F# would be the end) is doing the trick you ask... but it's not musically interesting.

EDIT : oups... I hope you wanted a solution... there is probably others much more interesting, this one is too systematical to be intertaining for long. So there a bit of challenge for the others... find something interesting ! ahah (unlike what I found)

Can you, using each of the 12 notes of the chromatic scale only once, represent the following 6 intervals: minor second, major second, minor third, major third, fourth, and augmented 4th.

I was trying to figure this out today, and I don't think it can be done. I couldn't figure out anyway to apply math to the problem, but maybe someone here can.

I posted the idea in this thread because I am trying to find interesting ways to come up with a tone row for writing something atonal. (the idea is to use all 12 notes before repeating any of them.) If anyone has any suggestions for how to do this I would love to hear those as well.

yes, because an interval consists of 2 notes, 2 X 6 is 12, you have 12 notes, therefore you are able to have 6 intervals

Ah, you can see that this way... I saw the intervallic succession (melodic intervals rather than melodic intervals)... our dear James Tenney would sort my reflection as CDC-I ehehe ;)

Ah, you can see that this way... I saw the intervallic succession (melodic intervals rather than melodic intervals)... our dear James Tenney would sort my reflection as CDC-I ehehe ;)

uhh, was that to me or the other guy?

You :D

ooh, is that a good thing I look at it like that? or should I think about it differently?

It wasn't a critic of you stuff... just that I haven't seen the problem in the angle of intervals but in the problematic of doing a row. Well, if the problem asked is a row... then it's more complexe than just having simply 6 intervals... you know a is a row?

It wasn't a critic of you stuff... just that I haven't seen the problem in the angle of intervals but in the problematic of doing a row.

Oh no, I didn't take it as criticism, I was merely wondering if there's a better way to think about it

Well the best way for you to see is to try it out... remember that in a row you must use all and only the 12 tones.

Like this?

chromatic scales are fun.mid

Hmmm. Hihi... I guess you'll have to explain this one...

Well the best way for you to see is to try it out... remember that in a row you must use all and only the 12 tones.

not to put too fine a point on it, a tone row MAY consist of 12 tones, or it can consist of less or even more notes.

there are numerous examples of strictly serial works with "imperfect" tone rows - of 10, 11 or 13 notes. some with less even.

as for a solution to the original question, the most boring I could come up with was:

minor 2nd, major 2nd, minor 3rd, major 3rd, aug 4th, P 4th

C - Db - Eb - Gb (F#) - A# - (down to) E - (up to) A natural

minor 2nd, major 2nd, minor 3rd, minor 3rd

G# - G - F - D - B (the end is sort of the left over intervals/notes)

Of course, your right Qccowboy... :sadtears:

Yes the rules in twelve tone music are quite commonly bent. Look at the three big ones: Webern and Schoenberg at times stuck with the rules strictly, but ventured away in some pieces. While it was quite common for Berg to not follow the rules strictly.

Yes the rules in twelve tone music are quite commonly bent. Look at the three big ones: Webern and Schoenberg at times stuck with the rules strictly, but ventured away in some pieces. While it was quite common for Berg to not follow the rules strictly.

the idea of the "imperfect" tone-row is not one of breaking rules. as I said, there are quit strictly serial works that use tone-rows of 10, 11 or 13 notes, There is a strawinski piece that is quite strictly serial but uses a tone-row of 7 notes. These pieces do not "break the rules" nor deviate from them.

just a clarification on the concept of serialism.

Oh yeah for sure :)

I was referring specifically to the idea of twelve-tone.

Yeah serialism is much broader than just pitch selection, i thought he was saying he was scared to bend or break the rules, and I was just sayin, go for it.

Unless you were instructed to stay strict.

Hmmm. Hihi... I guess you'll have to explain this one...

I was wondering if that was what you guys were talking about :)

That row of notes I mean.

Ok, Is that a tone row, and if so, is it that the tone row you were specifically talking about?

(I tried to make it interesting. I didn't exactly spend alot of time on it though)