Short tutti problem

Hi! I'm trying to write Romantic-inspired pieces, but I struggle with a lot of things. I cannot figure out what it is. I've taken a look at some tuttis in scores (like Tchaikovsky's Piano Concerto No. 1), but I didn't do well. To get a more "classical" vibe, should I reduce the harmony and leave just two voices (melody and bass)? Or should I double more voices in octaves more carefully?

I should add that I didn't apply myself too much; maybe I should think harder and not just place random notes on the paper.

For simpler reading, I can provide an excerpt of the score (it's very short anyway).

score.pdf

2 hours ago, Morgini said:

Hi! I'm trying to write Romantic-inspired pieces, but I struggle with a lot of things. I cannot figure out what it is. I've taken a look at some tuttis in scores (like Tchaikovsky's Piano Concerto No. 1), but I didn't do well. To get a more "classical" vibe, should I reduce the harmony and leave just two voices (melody and bass)? Or should I double more voices in octaves more carefully?

I should add that I didn't apply myself too much; maybe I should think harder and not just place random notes on the paper.

For simpler reading, I can provide an excerpt of the score (it's very short anyway).

Welcome to the forum!

This is an interesting discussion to open with, and in the best of ways. I feel there can be a lot of answers to this question and most of the comments may be stemmed from an individuals opinions when orchestrating and style.

For some context, can you provide a little of your background or theory-level? It will help us give an appropriate answer befitting of your experience.

So I'll introduce my experience. I am totally self-tudied in music and have been learning for a long time, but anyway:

Basics — I think I know enough, although I haven’t really tested myself formally.
Voice leading — I’ve read about counterpoint and harmony, but I never studied them in a strict academic way. Some of my voice writing comes from hearing and intuition (“by feel”), though I try to preserve some independence in each voice.
Harmony — I understand triads, secondary dominants, modulation, and related concepts well enough, I think. I also read Nikolai Rimsky-Korsakov’s orchestration book, as well as a similar one by my compatriot Marian Cyrus-Sobolewski called Orkiestracja.

I can link a video of one of my pieces (with a synchronized score) to show the direction I’m going in and provide more context: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSNKnQD84uU

(I wrote this almost year ago, and way i edited this video is bad - lets be honest)

Other piece (no score): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAIYVYFgCjw

My goal is to write music somewhat in the style of Pyotr Ilyich Tchaikovsky and Maurice Ravel. I also appreciate film music. Yeah, I know those are very different directions and a bit of a weird combination, but somehow that’s where my taste ended up.

Just a random amateur, I guess.

Edited 11 hours ago11 hr by Morgini
Video info

I see, that helps a lot! In the orchestration example you provide, there is something lacking in terms of the ensemble tessitura. Tessitura is a complex word, but in simple terms describes the characters/ properties of an instruments range. (I.e Flutes sounds airy/ whispery when played low, Tubas sound rich when played high, etc.)

In this context, I am worried about where the notes are placed in the instruments and then comparing that to the harmonic series.

If you wanted a full sound from the orchestra, you need to fill out the harmonic series so we hear all the resonances. The computer (MuseScore in this case) is deceiving you because you are hearing a lot of instruments, but if this were played live, it would sound loud, but not as rich/ warm as you want it to.

FEEDBACK:
Brass - The horns doubling the same pitch will not sound "full" but the same brassy sound louder.

Ensemble Tutti - There can be different variants of an ensemble tutti. The most basic being every instrument is playing the exact same line in their registers. However, another implication is that every instrument is playing, albeit, different material. This is more reminiscent to your example and I think it fitting if you have the bass instruments (Contrabasses, Contrabassoons) sustain the pedal/ tonic fundamental. If every line is moving, then it is hard to hear the melodic content you want. Pulsing the harmony and grounding the bass while the melodic line moves will be an effective tool to clearly hear the feature.

Timpani - BEWARREEEEE the timpani. While written in bass clef, it is NOT a bass instrument. Remind yourself that the timpani has anywhere between 1-5 drums (5 for professional ensembles and 4 for universal standard) It has a hard time moving stepwise and if you can write leaps or intervals bigger than a 3rd, it will be very easy on the player. They can tune the drum heads live and if you are not too sure if it is playable, ask a timpanist for insight.


Also, for a point of the score, make sure your language is standard. You mixed english names and italian names for the instruments. Make it easy on the brain and keep it one or the other lol

Attached is a sample orchestration of what I have done with these comments. I changed the harmony a little to make it simpler for example purposes only:

(I just realized I missed the Divisi for the Celli.. whoops)

Orchestration Sample.pdf

So there are two forms of tutti: full and partial.

In your case, you have full tutti. I will provide feedback for it.

I will draw from Rimsky, himself!

In orchestral full tutti, you have make sure balance the section correctly!

If the entire orchestra was marked at soft dynamics, then there would be issue. However, that is not case here!

Thus, we must address dynamic balance first.

Woods and Strings:

Melodic doubling: I feel it would impactful if strings double the melody in octaves! Then have flute and piccolo above that! Rimsky did this. Gustav Holst had an entire section string playing one gesture. it is more impactful!

Brass:

Here, I agree with @MK_Piano. Horns will pierce through and are over powerd. 1 horn=2 woods!

:)

7 hours ago, MK_Piano said:

I see, that helps a lot! In the orchestration example you provide, there is something lacking in terms of the ensemble tessitura. Tessitura is a complex word, but in simple terms describes the characters/ properties of an instruments range. (I.e Flutes sounds airy/ whispery when played low, Tubas sound rich when played high, etc.)

In this context, I am worried about where the notes are placed in the instruments and then comparing that to the harmonic series.

If you wanted a full sound from the orchestra, you need to fill out the harmonic series so we hear all the resonances. The computer (MuseScore in this case) is deceiving you because you are hearing a lot of instruments, but if this were played live, it would sound loud, but not as rich/ warm as you want it to.

FEEDBACK:
Brass - The horns doubling the same pitch will not sound "full" but the same brassy sound louder.

Ensemble Tutti - There can be different variants of an ensemble tutti. The most basic being every instrument is playing the exact same line in their registers. However, another implication is that every instrument is playing, albeit, different material. This is more reminiscent to your example and I think it fitting if you have the bass instruments (Contrabasses, Contrabassoons) sustain the pedal/ tonic fundamental. If every line is moving, then it is hard to hear the melodic content you want. Pulsing the harmony and grounding the bass while the melodic line moves will be an effective tool to clearly hear the feature.

Timpani - BEWARREEEEE the timpani. While written in bass clef, it is NOT a bass instrument. Remind yourself that the timpani has anywhere between 1-5 drums (5 for professional ensembles and 4 for universal standard) It has a hard time moving stepwise and if you can write leaps or intervals bigger than a 3rd, it will be very easy on the player. They can tune the drum heads live and if you are not too sure if it is playable, ask a timpanist for insight.


Also, for a point of the score, make sure your language is standard. You mixed english names and italian names for the instruments. Make it easy on the brain and keep it one or the other lol

Attached is a sample orchestration of what I have done with these comments. I changed the harmony a little to make it simpler for example purposes only:

(I just realized I missed the Divisi for the Celli.. whoops)

Thank you bery much for your and @Kvothe 's help. So you say program deceives a lot? Hm, i suspected from some point (even i rewrote some real composers tuttis to see if this works). Am i wrong or specially in tuttis programs will make a sound a lot different from reality?

Horn

It's suprising about horn i must mix something from here and here, like:

Horns comparing to others brass needs doubling to equalise level of loundess (i may quote a bit wrong this)

Question

I don' know if it's right place but i'd like to ask a important question. I don't know what to do to write better, i fell like i'm wandering around, or stuck in some kind small stupid box while iknow how much left is to be done.

So what i should do? Make slow analisys of great composers, apply them in my scoring? or... i don't know, read and seek for the problems with old pieces? Or maybe just i just simply simply suck writing for piano and any bigger assemble is doomed to fail... Maybe someone has got problem (among my many others) with writing a fast pieces? Others go through this problem too?

Any advices? :)

Just now, Morgini said:

Thank you bery much for your and @Kvothe 's help. So you say program deceives a lot? Hm, i suspected from some point (even i rewrote some real composers tuttis to see if this works). Am i wrong or specially in tuttis programs will make a sound a lot different from reality?

Horn

It's suprising about horn i must mix something from here and here, like:

Horns comparing to others brass needs doubling to equalise level of loundess (i may quote a bit wrong this)

Question

I don' know if it's right place but i'd like to ask a important question. I don't know what to do to write better, i fell like i'm wandering around, or stuck in some kind small stupid box while iknow how much left is to be done.

So what i should do? Make slow analisys of great composers, apply them in my scoring? or... i don't know, read and seek for the problems with old pieces? Or maybe just i just simply simply suck writing for piano and any bigger assemble is doomed to fail... Maybe someone has got problem (among my many others) with writing a fast pieces? Others go through this problem too?

Any advices? :)

[INFO DUMP]
I am not sure if I would go with the term "a lot" when it comes to the midi-playback discrepancy. It can be wonderous to hear our music realized in the notation engine; and at the same time, two things can be true at once. Hearing it in the computer is not the same as hearing it live. Just because the computer can do it, does not mean it will have the same effect with an orchestra or if it will be played correctly by an ensemble as the computer has shown. (People have done comparison videos showing Musescore Audio engine vs. a real orchestra. You can hear the results and form your opinions.)

It's why we inform ourselves on the properties of instruments and why we study instrument pairings so we have the best tools at our disposal for effective writing.

_______________
Ironically, to ask "How do I write better?" is a subjective question and the only answer will be what is great/ good to you. In the literal sense, if you feel you are inefficient or that your music is not accomplishing the standards you want, then there in itself is some knowledge dissonance and it may be your writing process that hinders you.

There are a few ways to do this, and asking these questions is more than okay (especially here!). Igor Stravinsky was quoted saying the following:
"Good composers borrow, Great ones steal"

It is a variation of a phrase both Picasso and T.S. Eliot used when describing their work. One way to learn is to look at the greats, or your composer ancestors. Look at their music and copy it by hand, or by mouse. See where they put the notes and see what instruments... then look at the results. Since you have some music theory training, analyze the harmony and see how they voiced a chord, etc!

Try re-orchestrating something if you want; or come up with your own exercises.

In the collegiate sphere, at an early point, we were given Bach harmonic progressions and had to write a melody on top in my undergrad. That was a few years ago. Speaking of, do understand that you won't become Wagner overnight. This will take time and that is okay.

_______________
If you haven't already learned, most big composers did not compose for a large ensemble first. They composed for a reduced score, as in a simple grand staff for a piano, and wrote out the entire piece first BEFORE orchestrating it. Did you know Gustav Holst wrote The Planets for Two Pianos in 1914, FOUR years before the premiere? He wrote it for keyboard first and then orchestrated the famous work we know today.

Starting small and being able to see all the pieces over 2-3 staves is a lot easier than trying to control 17+ staves at your first go. Thus, if you haven't, give this a try!

8 minutes ago, MK_Piano said:

[INFO DUMP]
I am not sure if I would go with the term "a lot" when it comes to the midi-playback discrepancy. It can be wonderous to hear our music realized in the notation engine; and at the same time, two things can be true at once. Hearing it in the computer is not the same as hearing it live. Just because the computer can do it, does not mean it will have the same effect with an orchestra or if it will be played correctly by an ensemble as the computer has shown. (People have done comparison videos showing Musescore Audio engine vs. a real orchestra. You can hear the results and form your opinions.)

It's why we inform ourselves on the properties of instruments and why we study instrument pairings so we have the best tools at our disposal for effective writing.

_______________
Ironically, to ask "How do I write better?" is a subjective question and the only answer will be what is great/ good to you. In the literal sense, if you feel you are inefficient or that your music is not accomplishing the standards you want, then there in itself is some knowledge dissonance and it may be your writing process that hinders you.

There are a few ways to do this, and asking these questions is more than okay (especially here!). Igor Stravinsky was quoted saying the following:
"Good composers borrow, Great ones steal"

It is a variation of a phrase both Picasso and T.S. Eliot used when describing their work. One way to learn is to look at the greats, or your composer ancestors. Look at their music and copy it by hand, or by mouse. See where they put the notes and see what instruments... then look at the results. Since you have some music theory training, analyze the harmony and see how they voiced a chord, etc!

Try re-orchestrating something if you want; or come up with your own exercises.

In the collegiate sphere, at an early point, we were given Bach harmonic progressions and had to write a melody on top in my undergrad. That was a few years ago. Speaking of, do understand that you won't become Wagner overnight. This will take time and that is okay.

_______________
If you haven't already learned, most big composers did not compose for a large ensemble first. They composed for a reduced score, as in a simple grand staff for a piano, and wrote out the entire piece first BEFORE orchestrating it. Did you know Gustav Holst wrote The Planets for Two Pianos in 1914, FOUR years before the premiere? He wrote it for keyboard first and then orchestrated the famous work we know today.

Starting small and being able to see all the pieces over 2-3 staves is a lot easier than trying to control 17+ staves at your first go. Thus, if you haven't, give this a try!

Right. Now i see. I must admit all you said is.. a true. According to first piano then orchestrate, i knew it and had in the back of my mind, but now i notice how important it is. I wanted to write right away on full 20 staff partitute.... yeah this is not gonna work. I must confess over all my musical output i write first on piano just a couple of times.

But what about writing on piano simply as it is. How do i know if i mess up here? Or maybe in other way: should i write something on piano and then upload to the forum?

Edited 1 hour ago1 hr by Morgini
.

9 minutes ago, Morgini said:

Right. Now i see. I must admit all you said is.. a true. According to first piano the orchestrate, i knew it and had in the back of my mind, but now i notice how important it is. I wanted to write right away on full 20 staff partitute.... yeah this is not gonna work. I must confess over all my musical output i write first on piano just a couple of times.

But what about writing on piano simply as it is. How do i know if i mess up here? Or maybe in other way: should i write something on piano and then upload to the forum?

Aha! That is the risk. If you know everything about your music and exactly what it would sound like, then you would not need to ask that question. It is the pursuit of the answer that you will become a composer.

If you mess up, then so be it! What is the point of failure if you don't learn from it?

To quell your concerns, here is a literal and personal example:
My manuscript of Waves of Frisco Bay

WavesofFrisco_sample.pdf

Here, you will see what I did for the piano and then how it came to be in the Orchestra. I used little abbreviated terms like FL. for Flute, CL. for Clarinet, and TBR. for Trombone. Here, I literally planned everything out. I gave roles for each instrument and then put it to midi.

How did I plan it? I started big and worked smaller: 1. Picked the form - 2. picked a style - 3. Wrote a theme - 4. Developed on paper - 5. Orchestrated.

This is one way and it may not work for you the same. However, mess around and try different approaches. Listen and read, or watch videos. Doesn't hurt to experiment lol