Piano left/right hand indication

Hi everyone.

I'm writing an atonal piece that consists of chords that span up to two or three octaves and fast arpeggios of the chords are always called upon. By the structure of the chord one definitely needs both hands but I'm wondering how to indicate it.

Letter indication came upon my mind as well as brackets. Are there any other types of hand indication or could it be left for the performer to decide? if yes, how? I'm also think about putting the notes in different staves, but is that used for this left-right hand purpose or for preventing clef change only?

generally speaking, a pianist will understand (or presume) that notes in one staff are for one hand, while notes in the other staff are for the other.

There are times where one might want to avoid the use of excessive clef changes and thus have the left hand move up into the upper staff along with the right hand, or vice versa. In this case the direction of stems should be enough to indicate which hand is required to play which notes.

If you have a lengthy passage (ie: more than one measure) of both hands playing in treble clef (for example) it might be best to simply have both staves in treble clef, thus keeping the "lower staff = left hand, upper staff = right hand" notation.

I've found that scalar passages that rise up from the bass clef into the treble clef (or, again, vice versa) often just LOOK better if the notes actually traverse from one staff into the next, thus again having both hands' material in the same staff.

As far as notation is concerned, the main consideration SHOULD be clarity. It is quite normal to have large amounts of ledger lines between the two staves of the grand staff. For example, a right hand chord that could be notated in the middle of the bass clef might actually simply be notated with lots of ledger lines. This particular notational situation depends on the tempo as well as the complexity of the music. Remember one simple rule for piano notation: clarity.

I've posted a few examples of the different sorts of situations you might encounter in piano writing.

In example 1, both hands actually have material in both staves (notice that the stem directions give an indication of which hand is to play which notes).

In example 2, the right hand has material in both teh lower staff and the upper staff simultaneously (again, stem direction here indicates that the opening chord has right hand notes in both staves. However, the wide range between the subsequant stem-up notes in bass clef and those in the treble clef are a sign that those bass clef notes are meant to be played with the left hand, which also happens to be free at that moment)

In example 3, we have an arpeggio figure that crosses down from treble to bass, moving from the upper staff to the lower.

And finally example 4 shows an instance where clarity and simplicity allow for a simple clef change within the upper staff, since the material continues in the bass clef for some time for that hand.

One important detail: stems up and down within a staff are not absolute indicators of which hand is to play which notes. Example 4 has some notes with stems in two different directions in the bass clef staff. Logic dictates that those notes are all meant to be played by the left hand.

it WOULD be nice to know that I didn't prepare this answer for nothing. Did it help you in any way? Have you even come back to this forum since?

Hi everyone.

I'm writing an atonal piece that consists of chords that span up to two or three octaves and fast arpeggios of the chords are always called upon. By the structure of the chord one definitely needs both hands but I'm wondering how to indicate it.

Letter indication came upon my mind as well as brackets. Are there any other types of hand indication or could it be left for the performer to decide? if yes, how? I'm also think about putting the notes in different staves, but is that used for this left-right hand purpose or for preventing clef change only?

Well, like you said, letter indication (such as L.H. and R.H.) and brackets are the most commonly used. I haven't seen any other form of indication. But in some romantic piano music, the pianist is often called upon to decide for himself.

it WOULD be nice to know that I didn't prepare this answer for nothing. Did it help you in any way? Have you even come back to this forum since?

I guess he left :)

Well look at it from the bright side, there might be others with the same question and now they have a very nice explanation :)

I guess he left :)

Well look at it from the bright side, there might be others with the same question and now they have a very nice explanation :)

well, as long as it ends up serving SOME purpose! hehehe

it IS taking up my storage space, after all.

Oops~ sorry if i seem to be away :P

I really appreciate your answer with detail descriptions. I chose to use cross staff beaming, which hopefully pianists will understand! Some people say that the harp or the orchestra is the hardest to write for, i think the piano is. At the same time managing the music itself, you have to deal with performing techniques such as the range of the hand or how is the easiest way to play a fast arpeggio etc. I'm not saying that other instruments doesn't have these sorts of problem, but for piano music the composer often have to indicate what the pianist should technically do.

by the way, where did you get the samples from? I assume that's just a tiny portion of what you have, and do you store all those score samples or the whole score in your computer or somewhere? that would be a great idea of managing sheet music.

attached is an excerpt from my piece.

those were excerpts from one of my own peices, a clarinet sonata.

is your piece for piano and other instruments? From the snippet you've posted it's hard to tell.

If it's piano and other instruments, I'd highly suggest that you break the barlines between the other instruments and the piano.

Barlines should not extend between a piano grand staff and any other instruments in the ensemble.

You're so helpful, Mr. Cowboy.

I'm glad you think so.

attached is an excerpt from my piece.

Assuming this is an example of the kind of figure your question was about, in this particular case I would really recommend placing the entire arpeggio in the upper staff, and letting the pianist deal with the hand distribution. Cross-staffing here makes it harder to understand what is actually going on (continuous upward motion--I'm assuming the lower staff is in treble clef as well). This is not really a place where it's in any way necessary to tell the pianist how to play it, and different players might prefer to play it in different ways.

thanks for all your comments... they were all very useful. I may as well settle on the one that eldkatt suggested, to place them all on one staff and let the player decide. Man! what a hard job it is to compose for the piano!

Not really.

Just thought I'd say something nice.

People tend to get a negative impression from me around here.

really? I can't possibly imagine why.

QC is always helpful ;)

clarinetcola: your example looks good, but do hide away that rest on the bottom staff... ;)

Also, by definition, unless you spend lots of time practising your own piece, or are a good pianist, most pianist will take liberties in your compositions... I usually don't bother with notating hands (even thought I'm a pianist), especially in some pieces that are hell to work out... It turns out that most performers prefer it this way, cause it leaves a gap and thus they can choose what they see fit. ;)