An exercise in Orchestration

I've been reading RK's 'Principles of Orchestration' for some time, on and off, but never actually got round to writing anything for anything bigger than a baroque orchestra. Today at school in an immense fit of bordem I decided to try it.

Very simple musically: Simple melody and 1 6 2 5 1 progression in A (melodic, mainly) minor.

I'd love any coments advice you can offer :)

Thanks, Mark

Orchestration exercise.MUS

why did you place the flute below the oboe?

That is one hell of a good point, and one that I really should have thought about as RK talks about it so much.

I think it was because the oboe sounded really crap in finale, so I had it ust doubling much quieter. How best do you suggest this would be rectified? taking the oboe down an octave?

Thanks for replying, Mark :)

well, who actually HAS the melody of the two? the oboe or the flute?

you could double the flute in octaves (simply add another flute one octave up)

or if the oboe has the melody, then give it to the flutes in octaves and give the lower part ot the oboe (or to clarinets in thirds, even better)

The flute has the melody, which in itself was doubling the celli two octaves up. How about doubling the flute a 6th below with the clarinets so they'd be playing [kind of] in thirds?

Thanks, Mark :)

I did a recording of your rendition, along with a slightly modified version of my own.

Mark's Version

QC's version

basically, I kept the idea of a sort of dialogue between the violins and celli, but gave more movement to the pizzicato accompaniment.

I also rearranged the woodwinds and the horn.

it's still not ideal, but it gives you an idea of where you could go.

the score is in Finale 2006, set up to use full version GPO, which was why I made the recordings.

Orchestration exercise-QC.MUS

Thanks so much for doing this, I really appreciate it :)

I see what you've done, and why it works much better :) Harmony in the winds, with the strings playing something cool, the name of which escapes me :D and the melody in the flutes in octaves and in the violin second time.

Again, thanks very much for doing this, I really do appreciate it :)

Mark

I like QC's one better, you can hear the woodwinds better in this one not the first.

Well, he is the one with degree, and I'm the 15 year old noob.

well, I didn't post it here for a comparison, I put it there to show Mark what he could do with his piece, what sort of texture he could build, how he could deal with his orchestral material.

so it probably IS a little unfair to compare the two version.

man, qc,

I thought it was very interestintg how you took his piece, and with a little difference in the orchestration, how big of a difference it made.

Hey mark, is it ok with you if i have a go at this piece with a orchestration of my own.

Please do, it might be interesting to see how someone else takes the same melody and harmony and orchestrates it. The chord progression is Am - F - Bm - E - Am

Thanks dude, ill try to post it in two days. maybe by tomorrow.

You say the progression is Am F Bm E Am. 1 6 2 5. but wouldnt the ii be a Bo (diminished) or are you using mode mixture and borrowing from major. Im just wondering..... Ok Im off to orchestrating. do you have finale gpo?

I don't have finale GPO, but I do have Finale 06, so I'll hopefully be able to open any file you post, unless you're using 2007.

It is a 1 6 2 5 1, but the 2; Bm is from A melodic minor, the F# makes it a perfect fifth. I prefer the sound of this to that of a diminished chord, and it sounds a little surprising the first few times as we're coming from an Fnat.

Have fun! :huh:

ok,

yeah, i was trying to think it through, and i realized why you put the f#. sorry. actually i do have finale 2007. so its more than likely that ill post the midi instead.unless you think 06 will openit

I'm not sure but I think 07 may have the option to save as an 06 file, I'll have to check though.

Hey,

here is my horrible attempt. Its a lot harder than i expected.

Um, during the first four bars, I tried to make it a woodwind phrase with all pizz. in the strings and the flute and oboe. the second time around, tried to give more of a grander feel. But I had no idea where to start.

TO my ears, it sounds really empty. any suggestions or tips would be appreciated.

hey QC, is that an augmented 6 chord second to last bar in your piece.

My horrible orchestration.MUS

I'd appreciate if you could post a midi, I can't open that file :)

oh ok,

sorry for the trouble.

My Horrible Orchestration.MID

Hey,

here is my horrible attempt. Its a lot harder than i expected.

Um, during the first four bars, I tried to make it a woodwind phrase with all pizz. in the strings and the flute and oboe. the second time around, tried to give more of a grander feel. But I had no idea where to start.

TO my ears, it sounds really empty. any suggestions or tips would be appreciated.

hey QC, is that an augmented 6 chord second to last bar in your piece.

there's a passing chromaticism in the strings, might be what you heard.

I think it might help you with your orchestration if you start by thinking in terms of groups of instruments rather than trying to divide lines across the whole ensemble right away.

Start by creating a satisfying blend of woodwinds.

Then consider your strings, as a group.

Consider the lone horn as a "sustaining" instrument.

So at first you look athe group of woodwinds. Where is each instrument strong and weak (register wise, I mean).

• Flutes are very WEAK in their lowest octave, but get richer int eh second octave, and then strident as they get higher above that
  
• Oboes are VERY strong in their lowest octave, and get progressively weaker and thinner sounding as they go above the staff
  
• clarinets have three separate registers - a mellow low register, a strong middle, and a rather strident high register
  
• bassoons can be very light when used staccato, but can be overpoweringly pungeant when used as sustained instruments in a light texture
  

To blend the instruments, you have to make sure that you are allowing them to profit from both their strong and weak registers.

• Flutes and clarinets will blend in almost any register
  
• Oboes will stick out like sore thumbs in their strong register if you try to blend them with the flutes in THEIR weak register
  
• flutes and oboes in unison (for example flute one and oboe one in unison, and flute 2 and oboe 2 below that in unison) will have a tendancy to mellow out the "honk-iness" of the oboes
  
• bassoons and oboes blend because they are all double reeds
  
• clarinets and bassoons will generally blend more successfully than oboes with flutes
  

Then, how many different sounds can the strings create (pizz, arco, etc...) and how do you want to use that.

• a single string line (violin 1 for example) might sound a bit sparse as a melodic element, but will gain in richness if doubled at the octave by one of the other string sections, and that richness will multiply exponentially when the strings are divided into a "harmonic" melody (for example, harmonising the melody with 3rds and 6ths in another string instrument)
  
• double basses in arco can and will be MUCH heavier than any other string instrument
  
• arco celli with pizz basses creates a very light sound with richness, either at the unison or in octaves
  

WOW,

Qc. Just by transposing the flute melody up an octave made a difference in the emotion of the piece. And that was only one modification!!!! MAn, there is so much more for me to learn about these kind of things.

Anyway, I found this really neat chart of instrument ranges and the timbre qualities they possess. It thought it would be great to share with everyone here.

Enjoy! And dont forget to get it laminated. Ill post another version of updated orchestration soon

InstrRange+Characterisicsv3.pdf

My horrible orchestration.MUS

horrible orchestration.MID

cain, great link, I'm going to print that out and stick it on my wall next to my poster of Bach :thumbsup:

QC: You've effectively summed up everything I've gleaned from weeks of studying orchestral scores :), also something to print out and refer to :D

Well, there is no "right" or "wrong" in any absolute sense, with orchestration. There are results that will sound less effectively, or those that will sound convincing.

One composer might have a preponderance for placing a single oboe in unison with his 1st flute in major melodies, while another might place that oboe an octave lower. That is what creates the differences in sound between two composers.

I think that when studying, it is best to learn the most effective methods of orchestration before going off on tangents and trying experimental things (see my signature for a Debussy quote on the subject).

I believe it is very important that any student orchestrator work at repeatedly setting the same phrase with the same and with different ensembles, as a means of fully coming to terms with just HOW the instruments can and do fit together.

I would say, reduce that idea you posted in this thread to its bare essentials, then re-try the orchestration for ONLY woodwinds. Make four different realizations, each one with a different intent.

For example, by giving the flutes a prominant role, you might create a certain sense of "clarity". By giving low clarinets the main emphasis you might give your phrase a sense of foreboding or mystery.

ALSO, think of the piano when you orchestrate...

I don't mean to orchestrate as though it were a piano, but rather that the piano has a sustaining pedal. The orchestra does not. The orchestrator's job is to CREATE the effect of a sustaining pedal through the judicious use of held notes.

Examine a Mozart score, you will often find that two horns are holding octaves that support the harmony. Those are sustaining notes, imitating the effect of the sust. pedal.

The details in an orchestation, things that might seem pointless at first glance, are often what give depth to the orchestration.

Ok Qc.

Here is one of the orchestrations for the wind section. IMO, i shouldnt have out the oboe that high, it lost girth and got lost in the bassoon.

But IM open to criticism and stuff.

umm. Off to work on the next one.

W. Winds (Take 1).MUS

Hey, Mark,

I am just wondering since I can't read .MUS files...

Why 6-2 in a minor key? That's a dim 5th but if you wanted it that way on purpose, that's fine.

I normally think in numeric progressions because I am used to pop/rock songwriting/composing, but I am such a beginner in orchestral writing that I am both stuck and embarassed to admit, and very thankful for this forum.

As an example, and the only reason I saw this, is that my favorite progression of all time is 1-6-3-7 in a minor key.

I'll have to grab something that can read .MUS files. All I have is NOTION and sequencers like Cubase and Tracktion.

Anyway, 15, eh? Good for you. Does your High School offer Music Theory? I took it in High School, too...but probably before your mom and dad...you know...

Thank you for posting this!

- A