An exercise in Orchestration

My school doesn't offer anything music related apart from the orh#chestra, which I can't join, because I don't play an orchestral instrument and apparently I'm too late to learn ;)

1 6 3 7 sounds interesting, where would it go after that? It doesn't seem to have any discernable resolution, unless you were to use it to modulate into the relative major...?

Hey qc,

Here is my second take at orchestration for just the woodwinds. I came closer to the results that I wanted this time. But please, feel free to critique and let me know whats going on, as I always enjoy your input.

sorry I took so long to give another take, but now i have more time dude to school being out, now im getting ready for Chapman university.

Ill post another take by this week

W. Winds Take 2.MUS

Hi Cain.

your second example is a bit better than the first one.

let me point out some things in the first, first... uhh... firstly? anyways

be careful about bringing together instruments on unisons. the harmony goes dead all of a sudden on those notes. Basically, the problems here are simply problems of classic voice leading. this is a rather difficult little ditty to set in 4 parts, at least as a beginner exercise.

with your second realization, there are improvements, but I see a bit of a problem with thinness. Again, be careful where parts come together at unisons (clarinet in the second measure I think, an F).

I'd suggest that instead of thinking like a piano part (where one normally has a very distinct "melody" above and "accompaniment" below) you try to think more of each line as a distinct melody. Try to play through each part both alone, and in relation to the other parts around it.

Remember that if when you play two parts isolated they DON'T sound perfectly good together, they will not sound any better with the other parts added.

Hey qc,

Here is my second take at orchestration for just the woodwinds. I came closer to the results that I wanted this time. But please, feel free to critique and let me know whats going on, as I always enjoy your input.

sorry I took so long to give another take, but now i have more time dude to school being out, now im getting ready for Chapman university.

Ill post another take by this week

Thanks for the reply QC,

I too think my orchestration is very thin, and does not carry the sweet and tender characteristics that the Woodwinds are capable of. My ideal orchestration for the woodwinds is pictures at an exhibition, when the promenade is in minor.

But I wouldnt know where to start on how achieve a sound like that. What would you suggest QC. So far, the only thing I think about is giving other instruments the melody. How can I make them sound full. other than avoid unisons

well, don't think of "the woodwinds" as 4 instruments.

If you are thinking orchestrally, then it is:

2 flutes

2 oboes

2 clarinets

2 bassoons

(and optionally, you may include 2 or 4 horns)

so think in terms of that ensemble.

let me get back to this a little later today, I'll try to post a brief 4-part phrase to orchestrate for woodwinds.

ok, I decided to go with something a little unorthodox for you.

this is a brief excerpt from one of my pieces, only the woodwind harmony.

It's realtively complete (all that's missing is some pizzicato celli and basses, some scampering violas and sustained notes in the violins).

I'll only post the harmonic reduction.

if you feel up to it, try your hand at setting it for:

2 flutes

1 oboe

1 english horn

2 clarinets

2 bassoons

This is a relatively traditional woodwind grouping for a full symphony.

The harmony is NOT "regular" tonal harmony, but it IS logical.

Try playing the harmony part at the piano if you can, this will give you an idea of what to orchestrate. You can (and should) change the register on some parts. I will post the original orchestration a little later for you to compare.

That score is very difficult to see. Most of the lines in the staff are missing when I load it.

Oops! I didn't realize there were only with 3 people participating. Do you mind if I join in the fun?

this is open to anyone, it's not part of the "official" classes.

I don't understand why you would have trouble reading the image, however, it's just a .JPG, you should be able to view it at whatever size you want to.

the image is messy, with some of the staff lines missing, so it's hard to see exactly what the notes are

the image is messy, with some of the staff lines missing, so it's hard to see exactly what the notes are

Did you click on it? It looks great to me...

:musicwhistle:

I just tried qc's orchestration exercise. It was a lot of fun, actually. I do know, however, that some things don't sound that great. I had a lot of trouble in particular with the last two measures. Or at least, they were the most intriguing to work with.

Picture & MIDI of orchestration attached. I took some liberties with dynamics. :musicwhistle: [EDIT: Looks like YC shrunk my image down. A non-compressed image can be found here: http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/1149/picture1wl4.png]

In my mind, this took place inside of an orchestra, or at least with some percussion (timpani, suspended cymbal, maybe some wind chimes?) and some light (tremolo?) strings.

[EDIT again: Looks like the MIDI sped up when I made it. When I was working with it, I had it at a much slower and dramatic pace. This would be a great climax to a piece.]

This is an interesting segment of music! I figured out what the notes are, but still not why I can only see some of the staff lines... Anyways, I'm gonna get to work now :musicwhistle: Thanks for the practice!

I won't post my rendition of it until at least saturday or sunday. I want to give people time to try it out and play with it without "cheating".

Rafn, I'm curious why you cut out a note from the melody in the flutes?

To others doing this little exercise, if you do anything "tricky" with the excerpt, remember that you DO need to justify "why" you are doing it.

This is supposed to be an exercise in using the an entire woodwind section to create a "chorale"-like effect.

once this one is over, I'll post a similar example to do with strings, then one for "full" orchestra.

Hello! I wasn't sure if you wanted me to transpose the parts, so I left them in concert pitch.

orch challenge.mid

orch.pdf

Hello! I wasn't sure if you wanted me to transpose the parts, so I left them in concert pitch.

let me comment a bit on your orchestration.

a question to ask yourself: are my choices affecting or altering the melodic line of the material I am orchestrating?

this is something that should be very carefully considered when one IS setting a line for orchestra - the melodic line itself.

I will point out what might seem a minor detail at first glance, but could in other contexts end up affecting the very colour of the orchestration - there is an octave leap at the beginning: E - E

Your orchestration leaves that little detail out :)

a second place where you made a register change is the high A that the second flute plays. it actually alters the melodic outline by introducing an upward movement in the flute timbre. if you play b oth flute parts together, what you will hear is E - E - E ------F# - G - F - A -

this actually alters the melodic outline.

this in itself is not a bad thing. it's just a consideration. how true to the original intent do you want to be when orchestrating?

This isn't a problem if one is setting a melody that has a very well-known outline (like Twinkle Twinkle Little Star), but when you are orchestrating a lesser (or in this case, completely) unknown melody, it becomes a more serious question.

out of curiosity, why did you place the 2nd bassoon higher than the 1st?

another little thing I notice is the very low oboe in the 4th measure with the corno inglese a third below. a very pungent combination, especially with clarinets playing in the same register. again, not "wrong". just something to take carefully into consideration.

The lone flute part above that MIGHT end up sounding a little bare.

Rafn, I'm curious why you cut out a note from the melody in the flutes?

I did that because I wanted the oboe to be the predominant instrument in those two measures. In a real performance, I don't know if that would be clear. Perhaps it would be necessary to make the flutes pp, as the oboe is mp.

I did that because I wanted the oboe to be the predominant instrument in those two measures. In a real performance, I don't know if that would be clear. Perhaps it would be necessary to make the flutes pp, as the oboe is mp.

I think the purpose of the exercise is to create homogeneity .

To have the oboes stick out suddenly like that defeats the purpose.

maybe I should ahve made that a bit clearer.

In truth, the effect of flutes cutting out suddenly will sound more like a "hole" in the orchestration rather than the sudden predominance of a particular timbre. The lost weight of those instruments suddenly, particularly at a harmonic juncture as it were, will be more noticable. The sort of effect you are looking to achieve is probably best kept for longer lines.

Okay, understandable, thanks. I know I didn't make it clear, but there would've been a break between the contrasted dynamics as well. Hence, the hole. But I see where you're coming from.

let me comment a bit on your orchestration.

a question to ask yourself: are my choices affecting or altering the melodic line of the material I am orchestrating?

this is something that should be very carefully considered when one IS setting a line for orchestra - the melodic line itself.

I will point out what might seem a minor detail at first glance, but could in other contexts end up affecting the very colour of the orchestration - there is an octave leap at the beginning: E - E

Your orchestration leaves that little detail out :)

a second place where you made a register change is the high A that the second flute plays. it actually alters the melodic outline by introducing an upward movement in the flute timbre. if you play b oth flute parts together, what you will hear is E - E - E ------F# - G - F - A -

this actually alters the melodic outline.

this in itself is not a bad thing. it's just a consideration. how true to the original intent do you want to be when orchestrating?

This isn't a problem if one is setting a melody that has a very well-known outline (like Twinkle Twinkle Little Star), but when you are orchestrating a lesser (or in this case, completely) unknown melody, it becomes a more serious question.

out of curiosity, why did you place the 2nd bassoon higher than the 1st?

another little thing I notice is the very low oboe in the 4th measure with the corno inglese a third below. a very pungent combination, especially with clarinets playing in the same register. again, not "wrong". just something to take carefully into consideration.

The lone flute part above that MIGHT end up sounding a little bare.

Thanks for commenting! Those were all things that I didn't notice- the differences between the melodic outlines of both versions, the register relationships between different parts...

As for the bassoons, I learned a long time ago (this could be completely wrong) that sometimes, performers like to be let outside their normal roles. Is that really incorrect, or a good idea?

hmmm, I'm not sure what the word "pungent" means :P

Thanks again, sir!

in a normal orchestral (or chamber ensemble) context, no, it is not an error to give 2nd instrument parts the chance to play above the 1st.

So no, it's not an error in the context of this exercise, it's just not necessary :)

as a matter of fact, it is quite common to have passages where there is a regular criss-crossing between 1st and 2nd desks. For example, an arpeggio pattern could be divided like that.

However, generally, a 1st desk player will have cultivated the higher end of his register, while the 2nd desk player will have concentrated on the tonal quality of his lower register.

if you know the opening of Strawinski's Le Sacre du Printemps, that extremely high bassoon solo would probably never be played by a 2nd desk player. The reason being that since it is a very exposed passage, and it is in the extreme high register, the 1st desk player will probably have better intonation. Also, generally speaking, the 1st desk player gets payed a bit more :( so he expects to GET those cool solos.

oh, ok, that makes a lot more sense. :D I've just remembered an incident like that in my own high school band- the composer wrote very low parts for the 3rd horns (me and another person), and we had insane amounts of trouble because we were used to playing in our higher registers.

well, I guess I'll post the "original" orchestration of this short passage.

As I said, this is just the woodwind part of the fragment, there are also some strings playing and a bit of brass, however, they are not affecting the actual harmony of the short pasage. That is entirely within the woodwind part.

So here is the orchestrated woodwind part.

and here is a recording of the woodwinds only

and the woodwind section in context with the rest of the orchestra

if you notice some of the apparent criss-crossing of voices between instruments, those were to avoid the repetition of notes.

This is a useful time to use those crossing voices. It allows for a smoother phrase since no one needs to "break" the phrase to repeat a note (which can remove some of the "legato" effect).