Lesson with Ram

Hopefully, we will begin work on the difference between the two types of answers this week. Sorry for the delay.

As promised we will now discuss "Tonal" and "Real" Answers in a fugue.

1) A Real Answer in a traditional tonal fugue is basically the subject transposed to the key of the Dominant.

2) A Tonal answer in a traditional fugue is an answer that usually stays in the same key as the subject but the positions of Tonic and Dominant switch places. Therefore you will notice that various intervals in the subject will change in a tonal answer.

Here is an example of in C major with a subject and a tonal answer.

Sub: GAGCBAG, Ans: CDCGEDC

Notice how the positions of the tonic and dominant switch places in the tonal answer. There is also a modification of intervals for the answer to continue in stepwise motion as was presented in the subject.

Make sense?

Make sense?

Makes perfect sense. So the "mutation" in the tonal answer is there to avoid the natural F that you would have if you were in a real transposition mode, which would indeed be weird if you had been modulating to the dominant (since then a F# would be warranted). Am I getting this correctly?

Raphael

Whether or not you are modulating to the dominant with a tonal answer, the key issue is to remember that the positions of the tonic and dominant in the subject switch places in the answer. In the example that I gave, if there was a decision made to modulate to the dominant you would still need the note C and not F# simply because of the nature of the tonal answer. Its more about keeping the relationship of the intervals of the tonic and dominant that make it a tonal answer. Remember, many of the "rules" and practices were made for observation of the works of the "masters". After understanding the tradtional practices there is no written rule that states that you cannot deviate from these traditional practices.

Was that clear? :happy:

In the example that I gave, if there was a decision made to modulate to the dominant you would still need the note C and not F# simply because of the nature of the tonal answer.

This is not clear to me.

Your example was:

Sub: GAGCBAG, Ans: CDCGEDC

The answer is mostly a fifth below excepted for the C which is answered with G instead of F if it were a pure transposition.

The problem, as I see it, is that in the subject in C major, C is the tonic. If the answer is modulating to the dominant (G), then clearly one cannot put an F in the answer, it would be a F#. But that would not be the tonic of G, so that's why you said one would put G instead, to remain in the tonality of G major and not shift back to C (as the natural F would).

Am I understanding this correctly?

Now back to my subject, I think I'd write a real answer to it, not a tonal answer, but I would slightly mutate the last note of the answer so as to be able to go back to the original tonic. That is, I would end the answer with EDC#E, instead of the natural transposition up a fifth, which would be ending with EDC#D (last 4 8th notes).

That single change of the last note of the answer would allow me to outline the dominant of D and go back to D in the next entry (A-C#-E-G, being the V7 of D). If I keep the D instead of E, then I need a bridge to modulate back to D after the answer is stated.

Is this analysis correct? Am I allowed to change the last interval of the subject in a "real" answer or is this only allowed in a "tonal" answer?

Yes, you are right in understanding that the note C and not F or F# in the answer is to help perserve a tonal structure. I thought you were asking if putting the note F or F# anywhere in the answer would be a problem.

Here is another example of a tonal answer from a Bach in the key of G minor (WTC. BWV 861)

Subject: D Eb G F# G

Answer (in the key of the dominant): G Bb D C# D

This example gives a better example of the answer suggesting the key of the dominant. Again, tonic and dominant changes roles but you will notice there is a slight alteration in the asnwer. The alterations usually occur to accomadate harmonic structure in the coutnersubject as well as to perserve specific intervals (by composer's choice) concerning the tonic and dominant (as was the case in Bach's fugue).

I will mention that a tonal answer in traditional examples are often used as an option when the subject starts on the Dominant, subdominant, or when the subject modulates to the dominant. But one doesn not have to choose a tonal answer unders these circumstances.

Was I able to aswer your question and make things clear or did I make it worse?

Here is another example of a tonal answer from a Bach in the key of G minor (WTC. BWV 861)

Subject: D Eb G F# G

Answer (in the key of the dominant): G Bb D C# D

This example gives a better example of the answer suggesting the key of the dominant.

Yes, but I would have emphasized only the first note as being the alteration. The remaining is just a transposition a 5th higher, but Bach chose to start with G and not A to keep the response "tonal" and continue to emphasize G minor a little longer (which is IV of the dominant).

So OK, I think I understand what "tonal" answer means now as opposed to "real".

In my previous post, I outlined what a "real" response would be for my fugue subject, with only the trailing part altered. Can you comment on that? Would my answer qualify as "real" despite this small mutation?

If you feel that you fully understand the difference between "Real" and "Tonal" answers then we can continue.

I did see your thoughts on writing a "Real" asnwer. So that you know, you will have to produce "Real" and "Tonal" answers for the sake of practice, comfort and understanding. As for tailoring the end part of your "Real" answer that is acceptable for a later time but not for the next lesson.

Here is what I want you to do:

1) Produce a "Real" answer without any modification for modulation back to the tonic for your original subject.

2) Produce a "Tonal" answer staying in the same key as the tonic for your original subject. Remember, some intervals may have to be modified. This one might be a little challening seeing that you original subject starts on the tonic is better suited for a "Real" answer. But give it a try anyway.

I did see your thoughts on writing a "Real" asnwer. So that you know, you will have to produce "Real" and "Tonal" answers for the sake of practice, comfort and understanding. As for tailoring the end part of your "Real" answer that is acceptable for a later time but not for the next lesson.

OK, I will do as you ask. Do I need to harmonize the answer to make it clear what is going on?

Meanwhile, whilst I'm working on this lesson, can you please comment on the exercise I've been doing whilst you were away: I've attempted to write 4 entries using the harmonizations I've been writing as a guide to write the counterpoint?

I'd like to know what's good and what's "less good", say. :blink: Thanks!

entries-try1.mid

OK, I will do as you ask. Do I need to harmonize the answer to make it clear what is going on?

Meanwhile, whilst I'm working on this lesson, can you please comment on the exercise I've been doing whilst you were away: I've attempted to write 4 entries using the harmonizations I've been writing as a guide to write the counterpoint?

I'd like to know what's good and what's "less good", say. :) Thanks!

No, don't need to make anything clear unless you feel that I might misunderstand something.

I will take a look at the entries for you.

Ok, I've taken a look at the entrances.

My only observation/critique is more of a personal one. I was never fond of fugue entrances being perdictable. For instance after the entrance of the Answer I always liked the idea of either some sort of sequence or free compositional material as a transition back to the tonic before the 3rd voice enters. Or, if no transition material at that point perhaps after the 3rd voice. I just like how it breaks up the straight forward entrances of a fugue. By the way, this concept is something we will work on in the fugue lessons(among with some other concepts).

I also like the flavor of the chormatic counterpoint. Its well controlled with the voice leading.

Hey Ram,

are you all set to move on?