FUTURE MUSIC

Lovely. Could you learn how to spell and not use dreadful nicknames while you're at it?

Beet. Oh, the possibilities are endless!

Beet, Mozie, Vivi.

And for humnab: Berly! (Don't say Mon Dieu.)

I have no intention of saying 'Mon Dieu.' I'm far more likely to start rabidly cursing you in the name of the Devil.

Debussey's music launched us into the twentieth century. I think that counts as significant. Bruckner has Bach's spirituality (although he didn't write nearly as much as Bach.) Brahms never really let himself go. I chose Stravinsky instead of Bartok (or Schonberg for that matter) because he did everything: Nationalism, Primitivism, Neo-classicalism, and even serialism. More importantly, everything he did, he did well and is obviously stravinsky and not a mere imitation (good artists copy, great artists steal.)

In any case, I hope you understand the rambling.

Dear God in Heaven (if you exist, which I hold greatly in doubt), I just read this whole thing. Every damn word of it.

I must be nuts. But I'm not quite tired enough to go to bed yet, so I will ramble a little commenting on things I read which I only half remember.

Why does it repeat so much? Didn't he say it was so he could hear it often enough he could find something in it?

Why climb a mountain for the sake of climbing it? Um, isn't it possible to enjoy the climb? Or is it somehow evil to climb a certain mountain if someone's climbed it before? It's not as though the experience will be exactly the same for anyone who does it.

Oh, and it seems that nothing in this debate was talking about music. I must be tired, because I thought that except for the food interlude it all was. Seeing as Page was mainly giving a free philosophy course, how is it than when his theories are debated (which is the essence of philosophy, for me, as it generally manages to clear up one's thinking and make people think more) it's not about music?

God I should go to bed.

Bouz, I can't agree that if you don't like a certain type of music there must be something wrong with you. It is psychologically impossible to like everything in the world, unless you're Christ. And even him: look at the fig tree, the money lenders... why, he didn't even like the devil.

I confess I can see why all sides lost their temper.

I haven't heard the infamous piece of music. I take it we're supposed to listen to it until we find a deep meaning in it. If we can't, does that mean we're dense or that we have different tastes?

In what way was this a pointless debate? Two points:

1)There's no such thing as a pointless debate unless both sides repeats EXACTLY the same sentences time after time.

2)Seeing as it debated the very theories that were posted in the original message of the thread, how does it not relate to that?

Though admittedly, one side did end up using the same terms endlessly. The debate ends when one side stops truly answering questions or even accepting that questions can be asked. Which is a problem. Questions can ALWAYS be asked. Though some questions are useless: 'Humnab, why did you write an oboe sonata?' 'Why the hell not, I had nothing better to do that day.'

Hmmm, was Messiaen uninnovative because much of his music was based on birdcalls, which he transcribed? Since it had been done before by the birds, does that make it unoriginal?

I should go to bed. I think I shall.

Alethea, in what way did you find my sonata innovative? I don't think you ever mentioned that adjective to me when it came to it. Just out of interest.

All of the so-called 'great' composers were trained monkeys. Schubert was taught by Salieri. Why do we remember Schubert for his music, but Salieri only because Pushkin wrote a play saying that he murdered Mozart and that the idea became, among others things, a half-forgotten opera and an excellent movie?

Were Peri and the Camerata unninovative because they were trying to recreate ancient Greek tragedy when they created opera as we know it? Seeing as what they produced probably would have been disowned by the Ancient Greeks? If you produce something new while trying to create something ancient, to whom should the glory go?

It is very late here and I feel like a glass of wine, but I probably shouldn't.

i Ma jeunesse est morte: c'est moi qui l'est tu

This is a very long and pointless addition.

'Music has been disregarded and degraded as a triviality': When did this happen? When was it so exalted and adored that you would have liked to live then?

God Michelle is going to have a field day with this one (where are you, by the way, mine little sparrow darlink?)

I'm going to go to bed now. Really. Have you heard the one about the Tartar, the Cossack and the three yaks...

Heavenly Hash? Don't they have Baskin-Robbins in your God-forsaken country? :-)

I would like to cheer up this thread by saying the following:

I HAVE MY VERY OWN VIOLIN!!!!!!!!!!!! Yay! Yay! Yay!

You mean you bought instead of renting? Congrats!

Hurrah!

Im getting back into this after a long time, but in answer to very early statements that we sould throw away all past ideas because its from past composers and we dont need these things like theory and sonota allegro form, my reaction is this...well you've sure made it easy for yourself, I mean this means no need to practice an instrument or learn the circle of fifths, well I guess that a good thing, who needs to work to get something worth working anyway, personally Im excited about starting music classes at UNT, Im going to sign up for as many dumb theory classes as I can. Its a mean to a greater end. It also means that when I start composing people are going to understand what Im saying, we'll be speaking the same language of modern classical western music, one established by the greatest minds to walk this world, beethoven, liszt-liszt Made the modern piano concert, we should be smart enough to realize that they knew what they were talking about, we are not in a possition (i think) to throw them aside and say we're better, Anything we do is because they made it possible and throwing the "rules" out seems fun but only a mature approach to music will leave it any future. now bring on the backlash cause I know its coming

Actually, it's not coming Eddie. Everyone has argued this already and has acutually said things that are similar to yours, if not the same. Weird that we're in agreement...no?

Liszt made the modern piano concerto? Strange, I always thought Mozart and Beethoven did that.

On the other hand, Brown, there's nothing wrong with not composing in sonata form -- so long as you're not a prick about it. The thing I have against Page isn't necessarily his music (which I've never heard) but the way he considers himself above everyone else because of how he composes and we do. DO NOT because the Anti-Page and bee as much of a prick as he just bcause you use sonata form.

"DO NOT because the Anti-Page and bee as much of a prick as he just bcause you use sonata form."?

Would you mind clarifying that a little please?!

Brown has acquired a slight reputation (rather well-deserved, in my opinion) of being a rrather insulting character in the name of so-called 'old-fashioned' music. As witness: 'I am wondering if anyone shares the same idea I do, i would never give my peice a name like "momentum, and

electric sheep" like I hear today, in my opinion these modern name demean real music. I dont like atonal music

at all, and think half the stuff made today is crap, I believe that Rachmaninoff was the last great composer that there will

probably ever be, because all I hear is people playing what sounds cool, and with no order, let me hear your opinion on music

made today, and how important melody is' (He also has run-on sentences and terrible grammar, and quite confused ideas, and that definetively hasn't improved in the months he's been away.) His reputation in that direction is the same reputation that Page has acquired on the completely opposite end of the spectrum. That's all.

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Brown, the reason I attacked your grammar is simply that it gets on my nerves. I attack other things, too. Like Alethea's French. But the problem is that in your old posts at least, you talked about what people will call 'old-styled' music in the same sort of tone Page talks about modern stuff. I was as ticked off at the way you presented your material as I was at Page's presenting of his. You had some valid points. However, I can't always agree. Rachmaninoff was the last great composer? What of Prokofiev, Khatchaturian, Shostakovich? What of Stravinsky? What of Benjamin Britten, Vaughan Williams, Sibelius? What of Bart

I was saying that when people overreact against someone questioning them it makes them seem like they have a reason to overreact, like if a cop questioned a lady suspected of murder and she runs from the cop, basically I was saying dont let me get to you with my dumb comments. Dont take them personal, if you know your right then thats that.Im just trying to make up for my hot tempor when it comes to music. I have very strong convitions, too strong. Last great composer,,, this is where Im coming from. He was a composer in every sence that we think of past great composers. And in his time he stood out because he was a relic of the past. A past when one could totally engulf oneself into music and not be distracted by modern devices. He was taught by non other than tchaikovsky, and was the best pianist of his time save for Josef Hoffman. His death, marks the END of the romantic period , AS WE THINK OF IF THEN, and the begining, of what we have, or I would say dont have today. Its not just an opinion statement in all respects. And when does the contemporary era begin...would you agree with 1944? or around then, well thats his death. mayby a little earlier...anyway off the topic Im going to watch how I word myself, its funny Im the most Tacful person I know, I always watch what I say in person, I rarely even make sarcastic comments, on the computer I just vent my anger at the current state of music, maybe unfoundly but nevertheless its there.

Please explain your statement, "A past when one could totally engulf oneself into music and not be distracted by modern devices." I'm just curious as to how one can be distracted by modern devices.

Well, atonality first came out in 1923 (or rather serialism, I should say). And as Sharp says -- be distracted by modern devices? Tell me, when Bart

No I said dont let ME get to YOU, Im worse, anyway.....Please let me clarify, Modern distractions...lets go back in time to Hyden (sp?) and his more than 100 symphonies, hundreds of concerto's and hundreds of piano peices, he was no exception, himself and every other great composer then's opus numbers ran into hundreds, if not thousands, they were prolific writer. Can anyone reallistically do that today? Who has the time to write countless symphonies---quality symphonies with full orchestration mind you. The fact is that composers today work on a much smaller scale, and its no fault of there's, first they dont need to make all that music for the king to have a new dance every week, but also its impossible because the whole society has changed. No one, even if they had the talent could every duplicate the number of peices bach wrote, we have, TV, school, Jobs social activities. Im sure no one will dissagree that the world we live in today does not give us the time we would want,

Haydn, Squire.

The world certainly does not give us the time we need; I am halfway through a 56(ish) hour week. Not that I'm complaining about the work load, just that I can't do anything musical.

I wonder what the Queen would ask to be written for her in today's world...

On the contrary!

I would think that music would be more shallow if you had to write a piece every week on demand, etc. What about those Baroque composers who had to have a 15-measure chorale every Sunday? Listen to one of those things and you'll get what I mean.

And I'd like to hear your thoughts on "not fully orchestrated" music. IMHO I think lots of music is very "deep", etc.....

my thoughts on not fully orchestrated music? well Im sure you already know my opinion on certain things. but you'll have to explain more

Brown, do bear in mind that in the Baroque era, a violin sonata was quite lengthy if it got over ten minutes, while today, the first movement is more likely to be that length. People don't necessarily write less than they did; they write longer pieces.