Not a suggestion: A request

Every atonal work I've heard (and to be fair, I haven't listened to that many) struck me as kind of creepy and disconcerting. This is fine, but I am curious to know how composers have succeeded (if they have) in writing atonal work which brings generally positive sentiments to the listener.

Don't get me wrong: I don't think that would necessarily be better music. I'm just curious to see if and how it's been done.

Any suggestions?

KrH

can you define atonal please? Cause I've had this discussion previously on another forum.

Strict atonality can be boring, and rather difficult in general. If you mean that, I'm not sure I can help you. If you are talking for more general contemporary techniques, I can propose some works I think...

I meant atonal in the sense that the piece is not in a key, and is not usefully analyzed as moving from key to key.

Does that help?

KRh

Not really Kris,

There are different harmonies: with 4ths, 5ths, 2nds (clusters), polytonality, polymodality, modal music, serialism, 12tone-ism (:)), other systems, aleatoric, etc...

Everything contemporary (or almost everything) cannot really be analysed with the tonal sense of harmony (I, V, V/V, I 6/4, V, I, etc), but with different means.

As I gather you are using the term atonal to contradict the term tonal.

If this is the case, then I will propose many works.

If this is the case, then I will propose many works.

I'm interested. I have heard quite a few 'not strictly tonal' pieces that are quite upbeat and happy, but he does have a point that a lot of this stuff is quite gloomy...(from what I've heard)

Not really Kris,

There are different harmonies: with 4ths, 5ths, 2nds (clusters), polytonality, polymodality, modal music, serialism, 12tone-ism (:)), other systems, aleatoric, etc...

From that list, I would be especially interested in serial and 12-tone examples. Also, I do not know what "polytonal," "polymodal," or "aleatoric" mean.

Everything contemporary (or almost everything) cannot really be analysed with the tonal sense of harmony (I, V, V/V, I 6/4, V, I, etc), but with different means.

Interesting... Can you do me a favor and listen to my the attached file* (it's very short) and say something about how its harmony is to be analyzed in contemporary terms? Does it have a tonal sense of harmony or not? If not, what kind of sense of harmony does it have? Etc. (I've always thought of it as having a tonal harmony, but one which floats somewhat erraticly from key to key. However, I never thought about it that hard, and now that I do think about it, I'm starting to think I might have been wrong. Now I can't tell whether it's just that it has tonality but breaks some tonal expectations, or rather, whether it's simply atonal, though with a few phrases which partake of a tonality.)

KRh

*Its something I've already posted elsewhere here, but I did not want to send you off to search for it, that is why I'm reposting it here.

Kris, you didn't attach anything so I had to go and search for it! Thankfully you only have 9 posts, so it was really easy to find it :cool:

I will post there instead of here for that piece, ok?

On the issue at hand:

I will post some stuff then, once I find the time and the resources.

Onto your missing terms:

Polytonal: Not in one tonality but in more than two, at the same time. For example, playing a sonata for violin (+ piano) and the left hand in the piano is at A major, the right hand at Eb minor, and the violin is playing in C major...

Polymodal, the same as above but instead of tonal scales (major, minor) you use modes (aiolian, dorian, 8-tone, etc)

aleatoric: random music. Alea means dice in Latin. Not the classic development, it doesn't matter if there is a melody, or somethings are developed randomnly, etc...

Don't have much time now, but will post to the other thread, and find some interesting things...

Kris: http://www.youngcomposers.com/forum/more-contemporary-music-7982.html

Try this thread. Not exactly what you're after, but will serve you for a while :cool:

...but he does have a point that a lot of this stuff is quite gloomy...(from what I've heard)

well, have you listened to any Mahler lately?

or Wagner?

or Bruckner?

or the largest part of Tchaikowski?

Really, I don't think "gloomy" (nor "serious") are the domain of uniquely the non-tonal composers. It almost seems as though the vast majority of symphonic music, particularly towards the end of the 19th century, expresses some sort of "deep, tragic" emotional material.

have you heard the Golden Age polka of Schostakowitch? or his 1st piano concerto? or his 9th symphony? if there is "non-traditionally tonal" music that is bubbling over with humour and frivolity, that is it.

But it could also be a symtpom of HOW you listen to and relate to music that is a bit outside your normal sphere of knowledge...

If I recall, my first raction to the Alban Berg violin concerto was one of bemusement and... well... gloom.

I now have a much deeper understanding of this particular piece, as well as a greater familiarity with its particular musical idiom, and I listen to it and hear the tenderness, the tragedy, the love and the anguish (yes, there is some of that in it).

The funny thing is that the one really "tonal" moment - when the Bach choral "Es Ist Genug" comes in near the end - is the single most anguish-filled moment in the entire piece to my ear. I hear it and it's the moment that ALWAYS forces the tears to my eyes and tightens my chest. once you udnerstand the dramatic impact of that particular choral and how it fits into the "narrative" of the violin concerto, then you can't listen to it as the "lovely tonal section" anymore.

well, sorry if I'm rambling on and on... maybe some of what I wrote might have helped in your understanding.

I second Alban Berg's Violin Concerto, that's "atonal" happiness.

I second Alban Berg's Violin Concerto, that's "atonal" happiness.

well, considering it's written in memory of a girl who died of leukemia... "happiness" isn't QUITE the word I would use :D

George Crumb writes a lot of atonal happy-sounding stuff.

Hey Qccowboy, your other post was really genial! You answered showing the other side with a counter-question, and with very good examples.

For the serial-non-creepy-and-disconcerting example request I would recommend the "Quartet for the End of Time" to Kris for listening. Despite of the title, this masterwork (by the way composed by Olivier Messiaen) has, among others such as an kind of apocalyptic mood (that perhaps can still feel disconcerting), a religious mood where the composer expressed his love to God, with subtle and delicate ambiences. This is very clear especially at the 5th and 8th movements, "Praise to the Eternity of Jesus" and "Prise to the Inmortality of Jesus". There, even if you was atheist, you can get to drop some tears in the presence of such beauty. Then, you analise its score, and you realize that it is not just atonal, but also a serial piece... composed in a prison camp and first performed for their 5000 fellow prisioners.

Thanks everyone. I checked out George Crumb, and what I heard didn't seem to be quite what I was looking for. But I liked it.

Meanwhile, the Quartet for the End of Tmie blew me away. I think I'm going to buy it. I see now how atonal music can do more than I have yet heard.

-Kris

I think you are looking for Barber's Capricorn Concerto. That is the happiest atonal piece of music I know of. You can't get happier than that concerto, now that I come to think of it.

You can also try Prokofiev, and Bartok. Both of them have some really gorgeous stuff. Like Bartok's Concerto for Orchestra. Gorgeous.

Meanwhile, the Quartet for the End of Tmie blew me away. I think I'm going to buy it. I see now how atonal music can do more than I have yet heard.

Kris,

Just keep in mind, that there is very litte piece which could be named atonal really. The quartet is not atonal, by any means. This is why I've been bugging you and asking you in the begining of the thread.

Prokofiev and Bartok are not atonal as well. (no offense, no nothing, I love both, and I just didn't think of recomending them really...)

What I mean is this:

If you go to a store and ask for some "atonal" music, you might actually NOT like it. It might not be what you expect. It would be best to get over any term or genre and go with your instincts, what you hear in the radio and here. There are a lot of threads around, introducing composers, and it's really worth following that.

I think you are looking for Barber's Capricorn Concerto. That is the happiest atonal piece of music I know of. You can't get happier than that concerto, now that I come to think of it.

You can also try Prokofiev, and Bartok. Both of them have some really gorgeous stuff. Like Bartok's Concerto for Orchestra. Gorgeous.

ummm, and NONE of this is atonal!!!!

Barber is FAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAR from "atonal", particularly in the Capricorn Concerto! It's VERY tonal.... just not "romantic.

Prokoviev never wrote ANYthing atonal. It is ALL purely functional harmony (he uses massive amounts of non-harmonic tones that resolve in unusual ways, but it's still pure functional harmony)

And Bartok was only very rarely approaching actual atonality. He never wrote anything that could be considered "atonal".

Heavily dissonant, yes. Atonal, no.

ummm, and NONE of this is atonal!!!!

Barber is FAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAR from "atonal", particularly in the Capricorn Concerto! It's VERY tonal.... just not "romantic.

Prokoviev never wrote ANYthing atonal. It is ALL purely functional harmony (he uses massive amounts of non-harmonic tones that resolve in unusual ways, but it's still pure functional harmony)

And Bartok was only very rarely approaching actual atonality. He never wrote anything that could be considered "atonal".

Heavily dissonant, yes. Atonal, no.

Sorry. :blush: It's not 12 tone or atonal, but I think that the person asking the question would be satisfied by it.

I'll bite my tongue next time.

A lot of people don't understand the definition of atonal.

I tried explaining this to my brother... alas... anything dissonant is "atonal junk"

*this statement has not been evaluated by the FDA, PDA, or FDR, and may or may not reflect the opinions of the poster, his next-door neighbor, or mechanic.

I think you are looking for Barber's Capricorn Concerto. That is the happiest atonal piece of music I know of.

The happiest atonal music I know are some Frank Zappa's songs, and also recommend another pop-rock-serial composer: Arrigo Barnabe, from Brazil. Search for LPs "Clara Crocodilo" or "Tubaroes Voadores", you all will love that stuff!

The quartet is not atonal, by any means.

Sorry Nikolas, this is a long discussion, isn't it? Even Beethoven has atonal passages (harmonic enigmas), which can become justified by very strange functionalities, but no one could think that is tonal-ish just by listening to it.

I guess our friend which opened this thread understands "atonal" in a very simplified way (perhaps "dissonant"), so I intended to reply to him in a dissonant context. Anyway, not to compare Messiaen's dissonances and consonances treatment with Prokofiev's.

Cheers!

I guess our friend which opened this thread understands "atonal" in a very simplified way (perhaps "dissonant"), so I intended to reply to him in a dissonant context.

I specified in my second post what I meant: Music that is not in a key, and is not usefully analyzed as moving from key to key. A later post in this thread, and wikipedia, seem to confirm my understanding--atonal music is "music without a tonal center."

(Note, also, that by hedging that with the phrase "usefully analyzed" rather than simply "analyzed" I by-the-by showed that I am aware of the complexities and ambiguities involved in the question I was trying to ask.)

Later, I also said I am looking for 12-tone and serial works. I selected these out of a list provided by someone else of types of music that sometimes get called "atonal." (Note: That list also included "aleatoric" music--random music--which is probably most likely to be strictly atonal, but I did not choose it because, being random, I doubt the music can be interpreted as communicating emotionally at all. I'd be happy to be corrected on that.)

Also, to be clear: This board is great, and everyone here has for the most part been really cool. This thread has been very helpful. Comments on my music have been encouraging, constructive and edifying. I'm just taking issue with one small point: I do not think my understanding of atonal music is "simplified." I will grant it might not be articulate, since I have not been in contact with the composing community for about ten years now and I didn't have the idiom down even back then.

-Kris

Edited to add: To supply some context, I've written a self-introduction for the forum here.

Sorry Nikolas, this is a long discussion, isn't it? Even Beethoven has atonal passages (harmonic enigmas), which can become justified by very strange functionalities, but no one could think that is tonal-ish just by listening to it.

If you cut 2 bars and take them out of context yes. Same with Messiaen, but I doubt anyone would go about atonality in Messiaens Quartet really.

I guess our friend which opened this thread understands "atonal" in a very simplified way (perhaps "dissonant"), so I intended to reply to him in a dissonant context. Anyway, not to compare Messiaen's dissonances and consonances treatment with Prokofiev's.

Cheers!

So am I. This is why I indicated such works. I just warned him not to go to a store, ask for "atonal" music and get something he might not enjoy. Honestly, nothing else! :(

Hey Kris, I'm not a very good english speaker, so sorry if the word "simplified" offended you ;)

Anyway listen to Zappa's atonal songs, and everybody listen to Arrigo Barnabe!!!

Nikolas, this is really a very long discussion... but nevermind. Let's go ahead with our music! Yours is great. And gently caress labels!

Nikolas, this is really a very long discussion... but nevermind. Let's go ahead with our music! Yours is great. And gently caress labels!

I agree. And lets.

Also samewise, your music is great as well!