Theory question

Hi, i'm having trouble differentiating secondary dominant chords from extended dominants. Since extended dominants are meant to be 'V7/V in a key of the moment' does that mean they are always in major quality? Having difficulty grasping extended dominants and secondary ones. Sorry if I havn't worded it clearly if anyone has a clue what i'm on about, I'd appreciate the help.

I've never heard of an extended dominant, but you're right, a secondary dominant chord is always major. The reason: you are 'tonicizing' the 'denominator' chord. In this case, you tonicize V, which means you have a temporary key of whatever V's root is, and then your dominant is in THAT key. Let's say you're in D:

Tonicize V = temporary key of A

V7 in the key of A is E7, which is E-G#-B-D. Even in minor keys, dominant chords have a major third (G#, not G).

But don't notate as II7. That's incorrect. Also, it is possible to have secondary leading tone chords (still key of D):

Example for viidim7/VI

Tonicize VI = temporary key of B

viidim7 in the key of B is a#dim7, which is A#-C#-E-G, unless it's half-diminished, in which case it's A#-C#-E-G#.

Hope all that is clearer than mud! Feel free to ask about anything that confuses you, I love doing this.

thanks Johan for clearing that up.

I do have another question: apparently a key characteristic of a dominant chord is the tritone. I don't see a tritone in any dominant chord unless it's diminshed. So then does it also somehow apply to ordinary dominant chords? Again, sorry if I haven't worded it correctly but would appreciate anyone clearing this up.

The only tritone I can see in any dominant chord is between the 3rd and 7th components (for example, in the key of C, the V7 would have a B and F).

That's the one, it is.

Seems to me that an extended dominant as you describe it Calevera is a special kind of secondary dominant, where it's always dominant of dominant. So something like V7/iv (in minor) is a secondary dominant but not extended.

Since dominant chords can be either V(7) or vii dim(7), can extended dominants be either V7/V or vii7/V?

Depends whether 'extended dominant' refers to the actual chord(vii) or the tonicization(V). vii dim7 is NOT a dominant, it is a leading-tone chord.

I have another question: What do they mean by studying a chord, such as V7, in 'parts'. For e.g. The V7 in two parts/three parts/four parts? is it just the amount of chord tones? would appreciate any help. thanks.

I've also been having trouble understanding a particular technique that i've heard a lot. It is when the bass note of the expected functioning chord is played along with the melody but every other chord tone sounds like it is working under a different functioning chord.

if anyone gets this any help would be appreciated. thanks

That's the one, it is.

Seems to me that an extended dominant as you describe it Calevera is a special kind of secondary dominant, where it's always dominant of dominant. So something like V7/iv (in minor) is a secondary dominant but not extended.

Since dominant chords can be either V(7) or vii dim(7), can extended dominants be either V7/V or vii7/V?

I am also having difficulty understanding this and am currently investigating...it seems that other than being the dominant of a dominant is also required to place them on strong beats. Here is what I find in a book:

''Dominant chords which are placed on a strong stress point will NOT sound as secondary dominants-etc''

The above seems to me a lot of cobblers,though. The above comes from a jazz textbook...these seem always far more messed up than classical textbooks which I actually understand better

'the above' :by that I meant the jazz textbook quotation,not the other user's

using the term extended dominants is wrong.

you can extend a dominant function for eg; I..IV..V7..V6/5.The V6/5 chord extends the dominant function of V. but thats it.

whoever gave you that term might have been talking of a dominant 9th chord which you could call an extended dominant 7,but most musicians would not understand what you mean by it.

thanks Johan for clearing that up.

I do have another question: apparently a key characteristic of a dominant chord is the tritone. I don't see a tritone in any dominant chord unless it's diminshed. So then does it also somehow apply to ordinary dominant chords? Again, sorry if I haven't worded it correctly but would appreciate anyone clearing this up.

i don't completely understand this whole thread, but maybe what you're hearing about tritones is that the third of V/V is a tritone relative to the tonic. like in C major, V/V is D-F#-A. i imagine this is important in establishing the chord as *not* a chord of C major.

lets clear up this dominant thing.

the V does not have to have a tritone for it to function as a dominant chord.Because the V is the 5th degree of the scale it is a dominant in relation to the I and it wants to move to the I.

This is because the V is the closest overtone to I in the overtones series.

now if you add the b7th the to V you get a dominant "7th" chord,which does have a tritone.

so you have a dominant triad and a dominant 7th chord and they both function as dominant to the I because of the relation of the 5th bettween their roots.

Another thing to remember is if you put the IV triad before the V triad there is a tritone wedged bettween them.the root of the IV to the 3rd of the V.

because this is a melodic interval and not present in the harmony of V it does not have as much impact but the effect is still there.

now when you use the II chord and sharpen it 3rd to make it a major ,it becomes the V/V "ONLY" because of the relation bettween the roots .

the only reason we sharpen the 3rd of II to make it a major chord is because a dominant functioning chord needs to have a leading tone to the tonic and that is what the sharpened 3rd becomes.

i hope this clears it up guys.

you really should take the time to study music composition because all these questions will be covered in your study,but if you cant ,just keep asking questions on this site.

there is always someone willing to help.including me.

but just remember, that if you want to understand how music works and you rely on a music forum for that ,then expect to be here for a long long time.

thanks peter for clearing that up. Still suprised that a tritone isn't needed for the V triad to function as dominant.

I do have some more questions--how are triads constructed in blues scale (both the one with and without the 4#) and how are triads constructed in mixolydian, lydian, phrygian and the other modes made from the C major scale, except the minor one, aeolean i think.

Also, what are the pratical implicatoins of learning scale construction?

All triads are made the same way. What comes into question is what triad variations are available on certain scale/modes; like in the minor scale (the modified aeolian mode): triads v and V co-exist. Chord ii exists as a diminished as well as a standard ii triad with the 5th perfect (because degree 6 (which happens to be the 5th of chord ii) can exist in two forms - natural (as used when descending from the tonic; and raised a semitone to deal with ascending to the tonic. Etcetera.

The same situation might partially apply to other traditional modes that lack a leading note - the 7th degree was often raised a semitone at cadences in polyphonic music. Some modes (phrygian, for instance) theoretically need the 6th raising in an ascending sequence, but if you mess around too much you lose the sense of the mode so it may be best to start with basic triads on the mode and regard alterations at cadence points as just accidentals.

Incidentally, a perfect cadence is impossible with some modes (like the phrygian) because v cannot act as a 'dominant'. So a plagal cadence is used. If you force a V by raising the 5th a semitone and raise the 3rd to become a leading note, you've effectively lost the phrygian in favour of a standard minor scale. All this is tradition, though - some interesting sounds arise from such messings-around.

The practical value of writing scales: it allows you to lay out the basic harmonic possibilities of that scale/mode, upon which you can add and keep track of what you're doing - particularly if you're in the habit of inventing scales. They also provide the bridge between the abstract roman-numeral notation and actual keys. It's easy anyway - you learn the sequence of intervals that you can then use to write that scale in any key. If you learned the major scale, TTSTTTS, you can write it out then derive the relative minor and all the remaining modes.

Just some thoughts

M

thanks mont for answering that. I've decided that I will not try to understand all the different modes atm and concentrate on major and minors.

I have another question- my text says, in a section about substitute dominant chords, that "bVII7's function as a modal interchange chord is more common than the possibility of a subV7/VI function". What I want to know is how does bVII7 act as a modal interchange chord? How is it used as modal interchange? The text has not elaborated on this.

thx

I have another question- my text says, in a section about substitute dominant chords, that "bVII7's function as a modal interchange chord is more common than the possibility of a subV7/VI function". What I want to know is how does bVII7 act as a modal interchange chord? How is it used as modal interchange? The text has not elaborated on this.

thx

[/b]

Modal Interchange!? :blush: - Whoa - there's a blast from the past! - Sounds like a Berklee textbook. I haven't heard that term in 25 years. As I recall, bVII7's inherit that modal interchange moniker because they can effectively resolve to I. This is in part because root motion by seconds (not just fifth's or fourths - an inverted fifth) is considered strong. In my mind, modal interchange chords and subdominant minor chords function somewhat interchangably. These would include bVII7, bVImaj7, IVmin, bIIImaj7, bVIImaj7, and bIImaj7 chords (neopolitan chords for you classical geeks). The answer to your question (i think) is that modal interchange chords function somewhat as an independent but related key of the moment derived from subdominant minor harmony EDIT: THIS IS WRONG, READ ON IN THIS THREAD (i.e. the IVmin chord), and take advantage of the fact that root motion in seconds is strong.

In practice, these chords present a wonderful arsenal of harmonic color that can be infused into tunes (in major keys) that would otherwise drown in the diatonic doldrums, or get stuck within the stylistic stigma imposed by extended dominant harmony. For instance, all of these are great chords for turnarounds at the end of a tune. Try it:

Imaj7 - bVImaj7 - bIIImaj7 - bVII7 - I

I suppose a purist would admonish me for throwing modal interchange and sub-dominant minor chords in one folder, but hey..

Hope this helps.

Hmm...if only a strip of music paper were available!

This is often more associated with jazz harmony if I remember. Basically this "modal interchange" thing is about borrowing/substituting chords from (for example) the tonic minor when you're in a major key and vice versa. Minor keys offer a load more triad variety than the major because the minor scale is different on the way up than the way down, so you can get some quite interesting effects. (Just my own view but every triad is an interchange possibility, just a question of where to use it or not.

Can we stick to tonic major/minor here?

The flat-VII 7 comes from the tonic minor of the given key. Does your text illustrate this? If not...

in C major, the standard chord vii is a diminished (can't do the little degree sign, sorry) - BDF - which could substitute for the dominant in some cases.

BDF is also one of the vii's in C minor.

However, C minor also contains VII as B-flat D F. As you've done, there's a flat sign before the VII. Like all triads, it can become a secondary 7th if you add a 7th - you get Bb-D-F-Ab.

In chromatic harmony it's perfectly acceptable to use this as a substitute for V to move to the tonic. So in C major, you get a progression like:

F----E

D---B-nat

Ab--G

Bb--C

bVII7a--I7a

About I7a...Ia would sound a bit bare without 7 and/or 9.

How you approach it is another matter. One way is to borrow the iv from the minor, also adding a 7th if you want.

Hence the relevant chords are regarded as interchangable between a major/minor key (the tonic minor).

"Modal interchange" sounds more flowery than the way I just explained. In this example it substitutes for a dominant or the less fruity sounding BDF (which in this position would act like an incomplete dominant, ie missing the root G ).

So its use is just substitution for variety, interest, and trick modulation (not an academic term - can someone invent one and write a £50 book on it? :ermm: Anyway, an unexpected one, like you're playing along in Eb and want to end on Cmaj for effect.

It's hardly different from the tierce de picardy in a minor piece where you substitute the major Ia triad for the minor at the last perfect cadence.

Have you tried writing out all the triads in the tonic minor key?

So I'm hoping this helps - but others may have things to add (or put me right!) Edit: And indeed, one just has!

:blush:

Oops, sorry, leightwing...I was preparing a post at the same moment. Yes, it's a bit rummaging through my 64bytes of brain (such as it is) to remember the subject.

Your definition is no doubt more accurate than mine. I tend to use these devices now without thinking of the analytic issues.

:blush:

Oops, sorry, leightwing...I was preparing a post at the same moment. Yes, it's a bit rummaging through my 64bytes of brain (such as it is) to remember the subject.

Your definition is no doubt more accurate than mine. I tend to use these devices now without thinking of the analytic issues.

:blush:

No - Not at all - your definition is entirely more acurate, and explains the true meaning of the term. Which apparentely has been lost upon me for the last 25 years. But I'd like to paraphrase it in my own terms for clarity's sake.

Modal - meaning based on a mode.

Interchange - meaning taken from the mode of the moment (in this case Ionian or Major) and changing that note into the root of a different mode.

So in this case, say we are in the key of C. Cmaj is our I chord, but if we temporarily decide to change it to C aolean, the only dominant chord that is available in that mode is Bb7.

That, I think, describes the modal relationship of the bVII7 chord to the I chord. Notice that it is not neccessary to think in terms of Jazz harmonic theory for this to make perfect sense. Funny how you sometimes end up really understanding things when you try to teach them to someone else. Thank you, Montpellier, for setting me straight.

mont and leight, thanks for the extensive answers. Now I think i get it. I like the variety that modal interchange chords add.

Leight - you're right, it's Berklee. You can probably find a free copy on the web somewhere but keep it quiet :).

A couple more questions: Since a subV7's importance lies in the inverted tritone of the original V7 (which it is the sub of) and its root (which is a tritone above the original V7's root), is it correct to include the 5th of the triad or will that 5th lose the ambiguity of the subV7's inverted tritone?

Also, is harmonic rhythm only about strong and weak beats or does it include otherfactors?

please help.

Hm, I'm having trouble understanding the question, so I'll just take a stab at it with something I know and maybe it'll answer things. If not, ask away, but try to be specific and use proper terminology.

Secondary dominant and leading-tone chords:

These can be used in place of some other chords in harmonic progressions. Proper harmonic progressions (down by 5th, up by 2nd, or down by 3rd) should still be used in approaching these chords.

They are created by "tonicizing" one of the diatonic triads (other than tonic or leading-tone triads) and writing down the dominant or leading-tone chord of the new tonic. For example, viidim/IV in G:

1. IV in G is C

2. viidim of C is B-D-F

So your chord would be B-D-F. Also, for V7/iii in F:

1. iii in F is Amin

2. V7 of A is E-G#-B-D

Note in these chords that key signatures are ignored. You don't have a Bb in the second example, which is in the key signature for the key of F. When building these chords, simply take the root note (B or E in these examples) and build the chord of proper quality above. Also, follow proper inversion rules - it would be a little odd to write the leading-tone chords as root position or second inversion.

As seen here, secondary dominants and leading-tone chords can also contain a seventh. For dominants, it should be a minor seventh, and for leading-tone chords it can be either a minor seventh (for a "half-diminished" chord) or a diminished seventh (for a "fully-diminished" chord). Sometimes, sevenths are necessary if the chord doesn't otherwise contain any non-diatonic tones. For example, the V/IV would need a seventh, because otherwise it is indistinguishable from the tonic chord.

As for secondary chords being heard on strong beats, it is a hazy issue, but a reason against it might be that the chord could be mistakenly heard as establishing a new key, especially if sustained for too long. It would probably depend on the approach and resolution.

Secondary chords are resolved how they would be normally: leading-tones go up by step, and dominants resolve down a fifth. Both of these involve moving to the "tonicized" chord - C and Amin in my examples. However, as with normal dominant chords, the secondary dominant may also resolve up by a 2nd, a deceptive resolution. The V7 seen in the second example may resolve to A, F, or perhaps even F# depending on the situation.

Hope that helps! I notice this post is a little old... sorry I didn't keep alert to the happenings in this thread. If you have any further questions, post again or send me a PM, I'll be happy to help any way I can.

Johan, thanks for the in-depth reply. I actually meant subsitute dominants where they resolve a half step down. I should have stated that clearly. Any help on substitute dominants (from Berklee text on Harmony) would be appreciated.

Another question I have is about contiguous II Vs. The description reads: The II V pattern is sometimes used in ascending rather than descending motion. When this occurs, functional analysis (Roman numerals in a key) is no longer relevant. The chord progression is justified on the basis of continuity and repetition in the melody, harmony and root motion. This is known as "non functional" analysis.

firstly, why would II V be so different if you played a V above the II rather than below it? Second, can anybody give a simple explanation of what contiguous II V is?

thanks

Johan, thanks for the in-depth reply. I actually meant subsitute dominants where they resolve a half step down. I should have stated that clearly. Any help on substitute dominants (from Berklee text on Harmony) would be appreciated.

Another question I have is about contiguous II Vs. The description reads: The II V pattern is sometimes used in ascending rather than descending motion. When this occurs, functional analysis (Roman numerals in a key) is no longer relevant. The chord progression is justified on the basis of continuity and repetition in the melody, harmony and root motion. This is known as "non functional" analysis.

firstly, why would II V be so different if you played a V above the II rather than below it? Second, can anybody give a simple explanation of what contiguous II V is?

thanks

Well here's my take on this from a jazz background.

Tritone substitutions are a substitution of the V7 chord with a dominant seventh built a tritone (aug. 4th or dim 5th) away from the root. i.e.

original= C dmin G7 C

substitution= C dmin Db7 C

also:

original= G A7 dmin G7 C

sub. = G Eb7 dmin Db7 C

As far as contiguous ii V's, jazz often uses the ii and V chords of any key as a progression within a tune of any other key. Almost as we can use secondary dominants (or V's) to tonicize an upcoming chord, we can tonicize that chord by adding it's ii-V as opposed to just a V. i.e.

original= C F G C

with secondary dominant C F D7 G C

with "ii-V" = C amin D7 G C

now here is my guess of what contiguous ii V's would be:

original= C F G C

new= C gmin C7 F amin D7 G C

or a even more contiguous example= C gmin C7 fmin Bb7 ebmin Ab7 Db7 C

note that the last 2 chords (Db7 C) function as a tritone sub. for the V chord. (G C)

This post may be completely off the mark as far as answering your question, but maybe people will find it interesting....