arnevr Posted August 30, 2007 Share Posted August 30, 2007 Did anyone ever noticed how similar Vangelis' Conquest of Paradise and Hans Zimmers' Gladiator (The Battle) soundtrack are. Plagiarism? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nikolas Posted August 30, 2007 Share Posted August 30, 2007 Chord progression is not copyrighted. Do you know how many music exist with the same chords like "Let it be", from Pachabell to whoever... Yes, it could be plagiarism, and it could be that Hans knew about it (most probably), but it's not illegal, so Vangelis can do nothing! (but live with the royalties of the "chariots of fire") Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arnevr Posted August 30, 2007 Author Share Posted August 30, 2007 I know what you mean, and that is not really why i said it. I just think it's kinda pathetic from a composer to make something that similar. I mean, come on, you're a composer, make you're own themes... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Posted August 30, 2007 Share Posted August 30, 2007 How many combinations of chords exist? There aren't that many that work, there's bound to be some re-use. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest QcCowboy Posted August 30, 2007 Share Posted August 30, 2007 probably why Zimmer is being sued by the estate of Gustav Holst? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marius Posted August 30, 2007 Share Posted August 30, 2007 Alright hold up just a moment, I have to come rescue my old buddy Hans here for a second. :laugh: For a composer to make something that similar is not, in this case, pathetic because Zimmer is intentionally using that same style and progression for a very specific reason. He knows that the sound produced by using that progression has already been stereotypically ingrained in peoples' minds as signifying that kind of powerful drama - it just provokes that feeling in people. Having said that, it's easy to retort that he should just find a new way to do that - which is arguably true - but on the other hand, one needs to keep in mind that Zimmer is writing primarily for an audience that couldn't tell a chord progression from a Corinthian archway. The point being, he's opting to accept and manipulate that shared fact in order to produce a soundtrack that gives the right vibes immediately - something that is recognizable enough in style that it works without being innovative enough to require any analysis on the part of the listener. I admire Zimmer for this because he manages to take the same basic musical premise and create extremely blunt and effective film music - and ultimately, that's what it's about. The music has to effectively assist with conveying the film's message without getting too bogged down in itself. Anyway, just thought I'd throw that out there to make sure this conversation doesn't go completely one-sided. :angry: Carry on. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arnevr Posted August 30, 2007 Author Share Posted August 30, 2007 One thing I need to say before people are thinking I hate Zimmer: ''Zimmer rocks! He's just one of my favourite composers.'' But the composition of Gladiator, I thought was too similar to Vangelis' Conquest of Paradise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tumababa Posted August 31, 2007 Share Posted August 31, 2007 How many combinations of chords exist? There aren't that many that work, there's bound to be some re-use. Sorry but I can't fathom this statement. Unless you're talking about common practice harmony in which case I take it back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Posted August 31, 2007 Share Posted August 31, 2007 I was talking about common practice yeah, and by work I mean won't offend un-educated ears. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Carter Posted September 1, 2007 Share Posted September 1, 2007 One thing I need to say before people are thinking I hate Zimmer: ''Zimmer rocks! He's just one of my favourite composers.'' But the composition of Gladiator, I thought was too similar to Vangelis' Conquest of Paradise. And I think you're COMPLETELY crazy , and you should listen again to Gladiator and Conquest of the paradise The first bars of Vangelis theme is : A2-F3-E3-D3-C#3-D3-E3-C#3-A2 For Gladiator : A2-D3-E3-F3-E3-D3-D3-E3-F3-E3 Except that the two themes are probably written in the same KEY (with my weak musical theory ) , and share a few chords at the beginning, it's definitely not similar . The only similarity is at the beginning of each theme : Vangelis goes from a A2 to F3 directly whereas Hans does A2--- D3-E3--- F3 That's just 2 notes in common , A2, F3 , you can't blame a composer for that ! After, the progression is completely different. Hans theme is much more dramatic and "wagnerian". Vangelis theme is more ... spanish, more "fantastic". Orchestrations are different, hans theme is performed by the horns, with male choirs in the background and big percussions . Vangelis theme is performed by "mmmmh" male choirs with a staccato rhythms played by synth strings. The feeling you get when you listen to these 2 tracks ( opening of conquest of paradise and the battle from gladiator ) is not the same... Really, I will never, never understand why we always BLAME Hans Zimmer just for "copying" ( not intentional ) 2 notes... Same thing for this whole "gustav holst" story. Planet mars is written in 5/4 , Hans transformed the theme in a 3/4 frightening waltz and it's definitely not what we call a "plagiarism" . Why nobody ever blame John Williams for copying Igor Stravinsky and his nutcracker in "Home alone" ( And in that case it's REALLY a plagiarism, or .. hommage ) ? For copying Richard Strauss in Superman ? For copying stravinsky firebird and holst symphony in star wars ??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Carter Posted September 1, 2007 Share Posted September 1, 2007 Oh Arne, we would like to listen to your OWN compositions, just to check if your work is 100 % original :mellow: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigel Posted September 3, 2007 Share Posted September 3, 2007 For a composer to make something that similar is not, in this case, pathetic because Zimmer is intentionally using that same style and progression for a very specific reason. I've always heard this progression in movies. Anyone care to tell what chords they are? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arnevr Posted September 3, 2007 Author Share Posted September 3, 2007 Allright I shouldn't have said that it maybe was plagiarism, that was stupid, because it are just a few notes where I'm talking about. But, when I listened to Gladiator theme it reminded me directly to the theme of Conquest of Paradise. And I hear definitly some resemblances in the main melody. My apologize for saying it could be plagiarism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yuroun Posted September 3, 2007 Share Posted September 3, 2007 Allright I shouldn't have said that it maybe was plagiarism, that was stupid, because it are just a few notes where I'm talking about. But, when I listened to Gladiator theme it reminded me directly to the theme of Conquest of Paradise. And I hear definitly some resemblances in the main melody. My apologize for saying it could be plagiarism. The first notes of '"'Zie ginds komt de stoomboot" and '"'Het Wilhelmus" are the same too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tumababa Posted September 3, 2007 Share Posted September 3, 2007 We should be talking about John Williams ripping off the opening of the second part of the Rite Of Spring and using it in the Star Wars movies. Same orchestration but it's probably transposed up or down a hair. Check it out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wagner Posted September 11, 2007 Share Posted September 11, 2007 We should be talking about John Williams ripping off the opening of the second part of the Rite Of Spring and using it in the Star Wars movies.Same orchestration but it's probably transposed up or down a hair. Check it out. Which part of Star Wars is that? Alot of it sounds very stravinskyish, with some Strauss, Holst and Mahler. Horner is the master of "plagiarism" - with the Braveheart thing (Holst: Jupiter) and some other thing from Kachaturian. Maybe they don't realize it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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