Time Signatures

My compositions so far have been pretty standard fare 3/4, 4/4 and I was wondering what rational, or maybe how one goes about composition in other time divisions. For example, why would one choose 2/4 over 4/4 or 6/8 over 3/4? Does it make a difference? And what about the other odd signatures, like a 9/16 for example, or 7/8?

2/4 is normally used for marches and some folk songs. It is just preference, normally.

Now, 6/8 and and 3/4 are totally different. 6/8 is what's called a compound time signature, and 3/4 is what's called a simple.

Simple time signatures are when the beat is the same as the pulse, and the pulse is diving into 2. For example, when you tap your foot (which represents the pulse) in 3/4, you tap it in three, which is the beat.

The pulse is divided by two: 1+ 2+ 3+ | 1+ 2+ 3+ | 1+ 2+ 3+

Compound time signatures are when the beat and the pulse are different, and the pulse is divided by two. In 6/8, you tap your foot every three 8th notes. There are six beats, but two pluses. (The 8th notes are the beat, but the dotted quarter notes are the pulse)

You dive the pulse into three: 123 456 | 123 456

Sorry, I'm not really great at teaching. Tell me if anything is confusing.

9/16 is the same as 9/8, except the 16th note would get the beat. It is a compound time signature. You would count it:

123 456 789 | 123 456 789 |

Time signatures like 7/8 and 10/8 are called complex. They are just weird. I like 10/8, so I'll just that as an example.

There are a few ways to count it. Some of them are:

123 456 78 910 *(Note that the 10 in "910" is a ten, not a 1 and zero)*

or

123 45 678 910

I'll get some examples of these up in a second.

Or you can count 10/8 like:

123 123 12 12.

Makes more sense to someone just speaking it out to hear the rhythm. it's like 12/8 with two stumpy beats at the end.

Same as 7/8: 123 123 12. it's a triple time sig. like 9/8, but with a short beat at the end.

Yeah, I normally count it "123 123 12 12." I just used the actual beats so that it would be understood better.

I have some examples of 2/4, 3/4 compared to 6/8 (so you can hopefully understand the different feel), and 10/8.

1st one is just a Scottish March, and I think it's the national anthem.

zSHARE - march ex.mp3

2st is a chorale I made a long time ago. It is just so show the difference between 3/4 and 6/8.

zSHARE - 3-4 chorale example.mp3

3rd one is a folk song made popular by the last movement of Second Suite in F (by Gustav Holst).

zSHARE - dargason.mp3

4th one is part of one of my compositions in 10/8. The feel is 123 123 12 12.

zSHARE - war of the titans.mp3

March Example.pdf

Chorale Example.pdf

Dargason.pdf

Complex example.pdf

Thanks for the help, it's making much more sense now.

I've found that the most effective (and standard) way to describe time signatures is the following: Basically there are 5 types of time sigs.

The 1st is called simple duple; there are 2 or 4 strong beats in each measure and they are subdivided into even sets of 2 (ie: 2/2, 2/4, 4/4 and 4/2). ex1: 4/4 = 1 and 2 and 3 and 4 and etc ex2: 2/2 = 1 and 2 and etc.

The 2nd in complex duple; 3, 6, 9, 12 etc. strong beats per measure evenly subdivided into sets of 2 (ie: 3/4, 3/2, 6/8 (so long as its subdivided in 2) etc.). ex: 6/8 = 1 2 3 4 5 6 etc.

The 3rd is simple triple; 2 or 4 strong beats per measure evenly subdivided into sets of 3 (ie: 6/8, 12/8 (so long as they are subdivided in 3) etc.). ex: 6/8 = 1 2 3 4 5 6 etc.

The 4th is complex triple; 3, 6, 9, 12 etc. strong beats per measure evenly subdivided into sets of 3 (ie: 9/8) ex: 9/8 = 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 etc.

The 5th is called asymmetric; basically all the "odd" meters (ie: 10/8, 9/16, 7/8, 5/4, 8/8 etc.). ex1: 10/8 = 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 etc. ex2: 5/4 = 1 and 2 and 3 and 4 and 5 and etc. ex3: 8/8 = 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 etc.

Thats pretty much all you need to know. Let me know if you have any questions.

I've found that the most effective (and standard) way to describe time signatures is the following: Basically there are 5 types of time sigs.

The 1st is called simple duple; there are 2 or 4 strong beats in each measure and they are subdivided into even sets of 2 (ie: 2/2, 2/4, 4/4 and 4/2). ex1: 4/4 = 1 and 2 and 3 and 4 and etc ex2: 2/2 = 1 and 2 and etc.

The 2nd in complex duple; 3, 6, 9, 12 etc. strong beats per measure evenly subdivided into sets of 2 (ie: 3/4, 3/2, 6/8 (so long as its subdivided in 2) etc.). ex: 6/8 = 1 2 3 4 5 6 etc.

The 3rd is simple triple; 2 or 4 strong beats per measure evenly subdivided into sets of 3 (ie: 6/8, 12/8 (so long as they are subdivided in 3) etc.). ex: 6/8 = 1 2 3 4 5 6 etc.

The 4th is complex triple; 3, 6, 9, 12 etc. strong beats per measure evenly subdivided into sets of 3 (ie: 9/8) ex: 9/8 = 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 etc.

The 5th is called asymmetric; basically all the "odd" meters (ie: 10/8, 9/16, 7/8, 5/4, 8/8 etc.). ex1: 10/8 = 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 etc. ex2: 5/4 = 1 and 2 and 3 and 4 and 5 and etc. ex3: 8/8 = 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 etc.

Thats pretty much all you need to know. Let me know if you have any questions.

This can work, but understand that this is not the standardized way of categorizing time signatures.

Simple is when the pulse (where the strong beat is) isn't divided by three.

Ex: 2/2 = 1 + 2 +

3/4 = 1 + 2 + 3 +

4/8 = 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 +

Complex is when the pulse is divided by three.

Ex: 6/8 = 1 2 3 4 5 6

9/16 = 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9

12/4 = 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12

Duple is when there are two pulses (ex: 2/4, 6/8). Triple is when there are three pulses (ex: 3/4, 9/16). Quadruple is when there are four pulses (ex: 4/4, 12/8).

Then you can put them together. 4/4 would be a simple quadruple, and 6/8 would be a complex duple.

This can work, but understand that this is not the standardized way of categorizing time signatures.

Simple is when the pulse (where the strong beat is) isn't divided by three.

Ex: 2/2 = 1 + 2 +

3/4 = 1 + 2 + 3 +

4/8 = 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 +

Complex is when the pulse is divided by three.

Ex: 6/8 = 1 2 3 4 5 6

9/16 = 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9

12/4 = 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12

Duple is when there are two pulses (ex: 2/4, 6/8). Triple is when there are three pulses (ex: 3/4, 9/16). Quadruple is when there are four pulses (ex: 4/4, 12/8).

Then you can put them together. 4/4 would be a simple quadruple, and 6/8 would be a complex duple.

Yeah, youre right. I had that backwards. Simple is subdivided into sets of 2, compound is subdivided into sets of 3. Duple has 2 pulses while triple has 3 pulses (quadruple does exist, but is more simply just a subdivision of duple). you can combine them anyway you want. If you have simple and compound and/or triple and duple sections within a single measure you are working with an asymmetric meter. There ya go.

Yeah, youre right. I had that backwards. Simple is subdivided into sets of 2, compound is subdivided into sets of 3. Duple has 2 pulses while triple has 3 pulses (quadruple does exist, but is more simply just a subdivision of duple). you can combine them anyway you want. If you have simple and compound and/or triple and duple sections within a single measure you are working with an asymmetric meter. There ya go.

Almost, but not exactly. Quadruple is not a subdivision of duple. That would mean that in 4/4, the half note would get the beat. You need to use quadruple.

Almost, but not exactly. Quadruple is not a subdivision of duple. That would mean that in 4/4, the half note would get the beat. You need to use quadruple.

Ultimately it is. The first beat is the strongest, the 3rd is the second strongest, and the 2nd and 4th, though still considered strong beats, are secondary to the 1st and 3rd, making them (technically) subdivisions. They, too, can then be subdivided into 8th notes, which subdivide into 16ths etc.

Ultimately it is. The first beat is the strongest, the 3rd is the second strongest, and the 2nd and 4th, though still considered strong beats, are secondary to the 1st and 3rd, making them (technically) subdivisions. They, too, can then be subdivided into 8th notes, which subdivide into 16ths etc.

Yeah, I see what you're saying. But that's kinda like saying that 4 doesn't exist because 2 + 2 = 4.

Yeah, I see what you're saying. But that's kinda like saying that 4 doesn't exist because 2 + 2 = 4.

Forgive me for quoting myself here, but I do recall stating that quadruple meter DOES exist. All I was saying is that it is almost never used anymore as it is basically just 2 sets of 2. Music is broken up in fractions, as we all know, so its more like saying 2/4 (the fraction, not the time sig :)) is negated because its really just 1/2. :ninja:

There's also different ways to pattern a time signature: the higher the "numerator" the more possible patterns. The main melody to Ticheli's Vesuvius is in 9/8, patterned 12 123 12 12. You might be even more interested in Guo Wenjing's

You can find an analysis of odd meter patterns at: Dictionary of Exotic Rhythms

Enjoy!

You can find an analysis of odd meter patterns at: Dictionary of Exotic Rhythms

An interesting link... and so many Don Ellis references (a very hip and under-rated jazz composer)!

There's also different ways to pattern a time signature: the higher the "numerator" the more possible patterns. The main melody to Ticheli's Vesuvius is in 9/8, patterned 12 123 12 12. You might be even more interested in Guo Wenjing's

, which includes 5/8 (both 12 123 and 123 12) and 7/8 (123 12 12 and 12 123 12).

You can find an analysis of odd meter patterns at: Dictionary of Exotic Rhythms

Enjoy!

Yeah, I covered that. they're called asymmetric. In the case of 9/8 it CAN be subdivided into a combination of simple and compound (as in your example above: simple, compound, simple simple) making it, in that case, another asymmetric meter. Thats why I love 12/8, it can be simple triple (123456789101112), compound duple (123456789101112), or one of many asymmetric variations.

Same as 7/8: 123 123 12. it's a triple time sig. like 9/8, but with a short beat at the end.

Three plus three plus two is eight, not seven.

I've found that the most effective (and standard) way to describe time signatures is the following: Basically there are 5 types of time sigs.

The 1st is called simple duple; there are 2 or 4 strong beats in each measure and they are subdivided into even sets of 2 (ie: 2/2, 2/4, 4/4 and 4/2). ex1: 4/4 = 1 and 2 and 3 and 4 and etc ex2: 2/2 = 1 and 2 and etc.

The 2nd in complex duple; 3, 6, 9, 12 etc. strong beats per measure evenly subdivided into sets of 2 (ie: 3/4, 3/2, 6/8 (so long as its subdivided in 2) etc.). ex: 6/8 = 1 2 3 4 5 6 etc.

The 3rd is simple triple; 2 or 4 strong beats per measure evenly subdivided into sets of 3 (ie: 6/8, 12/8 (so long as they are subdivided in 3) etc.). ex: 6/8 = 1 2 3 4 5 6 etc.

The 4th is complex triple; 3, 6, 9, 12 etc. strong beats per measure evenly subdivided into sets of 3 (ie: 9/8) ex: 9/8 = 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 etc.

The 5th is called asymmetric; basically all the "odd" meters (ie: 10/8, 9/16, 7/8, 5/4, 8/8 etc.). ex1: 10/8 = 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 etc. ex2: 5/4 = 1 and 2 and 3 and 4 and 5 and etc. ex3: 8/8 = 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 etc.

Thats pretty much all you need to know. Let me know if you have any questions.

No love for irrational time signatures?

Three plus three plus two is eight, not seven.

OH BURN!

No love for irrational time signatures?

Like what?

Like what?

Like 2.5/4...

or like 4/3 (I think it does exist, but mostly used in electronic stuff).

Yeah. Some thrash song (I'll edit if I remember which one) uses 5/6, I think.

Like 2.5/4...

or like 4/3 (I think it does exist, but mostly used in electronic stuff).

Ok, I'm just going to come out and say this right now. 5/6, 4/3, 2.5/4 etc. do NOT exist. What is a 6th note? or a 3rd note? And if you had 2.5 quarter notes in a measure it would 5/8. 5 6th notes in a measure would just be two sets of triplets with the second cut off early...aka, 5/8. They're all just tuplets of other meters.

Ok, I'm just going to come out and say this right now. 5/6, 4/3, 2.5/4 etc. do NOT exist. What is a 6th note? or a 3rd note? And if you had 2.5 quarter notes in a measure it would 5/8. 5 6th notes in a measure would just be two sets of triplets with the second cut off early...aka, 5/8. They're all just tuplets of other meters.

If you have a bar of five quarter-note triplets, it's a bit easier to notate it as 5/6 than 5/4 at a tempo four-thirds as fast (that math is probably totally wrong because I don't care to think at the moment). These time signatures do exist, as there are many modern pieces notated with them.

If you have a bar of five quarter-note triplets, it's a bit easier to notate it as 5/6 than 5/4 at a tempo four-thirds as fast ...

You think so? Personally, I'd HATE to try and read something notated using quarter-note-triplets as you describe. It's needlessly and pointlessly complicating it. Might be easier to notate, but likely damn near impossible to read. Also, wouldn't the end result just end up like 5/4? :huh:

Within the measure, it would be notated as triplets. If you wrote it as 5/4, the musician would have to look at the ratio of the time signatures to realize that a quarter note within the measure is a triplet for the previous measure. That, to me, seems more complicated.

There is no such thing as a sixth note, therefore, a time signature of anything/6 cannot exist, and if you've seen a piece notated that way it is wrong. You might argue that a triplet can be considered a "3rd note", and I'm here to tell you that that is just something you've made up or someone else has made up that you've seen to comprehend the rhythm better. Notate it as a triplet, or better yet, make the time signature 3/8 and it should have relatively the same feel.