Atonal in Finale 2008?

I'm just wondering if anyone knows if Finale 2008 has an atonal mode for writing music (as in no key signatures, but it still plays back with the instrument's transpositions). I've been looking for a while and I can't find one. Thanks :)

I think in the drop down box that gives you the choice for major or minor also have "non-traditional" or something like that. If you just wanted it to be notated in C, just leave the settings as they are.

I just tried that and there's one problem, it stops playing back the instruments transpositions, thanks though.

I'll keep playing around with it to see if I can find a way to make it play back the transpositions but write without a key signature.

Why not just flip between concert and transposed scores? Concert for playback, and transposed for whatever else you're doing.

Personally, I don't use either transposed scores, nor key signatures - so I haven't run into the problem.

Simply choose "chromatic transposition" in the transposition dialogue, instead of the pre-set ones.

for example, clarinet in Bb, you'd use "chromatic, Bb, up M 2nd".

don't start fiddling around with the "non-traditional" options. this is much simpler.

Set up the transpositions in the Staff Attributes dialog, and then uncheck "Key Signatures" in the "items to show" area.

Don't transpose. It's been many years since I transposed anything on a conductors copy. with atonal works, everybody expects that the score will be in C. I guess Finale as well... ;)

Thanks for all the ideas, I'll try them right away

Set up the transpositions in the Staff Attributes dialog, and then uncheck "Key Signatures" in the "items to show" area.

That worked perfectly, thanks! :)

Set up the transpositions in the Staff Attributes dialog, and then uncheck "Key Signatures" in the "items to show" area.

NO no no... this will not allow accidentals to show...

for example, with this option, if you write a note that is in the "key signature" it will show as a a note with no accidental using this option.

The only way to do what he wants is as I suggested: transposition -> chromatic.

As an example, write something "in C" for clarinet in Bb.

The programme automatically sets up the staff transposition to read D major = 2 sharps.

write a few notes, including some F's and C's (which should show no accidental, since they're already in the key sig)

Now, use the "items to show, uncheck key signature" option, and suddenly, your clarinetist is playing teh wrong notes.. the C's and F's will appear as un-accidentalled.

The only way to write it so that the proper accidentals appear on the staff is via the chromatic transposition option.

Oh, good point. :-p I didn't even think of that!!!

(I usually work in a key)

the "items to show" option, where you remove key sigs, is for percussion parts, where generally you don't WANT a key sig to show.

I think you are talking about the neutral key as referred in Finale’s 2008 manual. If you are looking for a neutral key you are intending to get a score that does not have any accidental preset in the staff anyway. In order to get this first of all do not read the neutral key instructions of Finale’s manual since it is wrong (and very) for what you actually want to do.

According to Finale’s manual you have to think of everything in C major with the Display in Concert Pitch enabled (as though the instrument was not a transposing instrument) - good but - and then just transpose the transposing instrument by the Utilities Menu using the Transpose dialogue box to set the appropiate interval to be transposed. If you follow these instructions and then disable Display in Concert Pitch you are going to have the key signature back for that instrument and good bye to your ex-neutral key masterpiece!

There is a way to get a permanent neutral key by – after you have setup your score normally in C major (and yes the key signatures and their respective accidentals to any transposing instruments will be there untill you finish these instructions) - using the Staff Tool and double-clicking the transposing instrument staff you want to edit. It will open the Staff Attributes dialogue box and then you click Select in the (checked by default) Transposition option. In the Staff Transpositions dialogue box you choose Chromatic (note that the correct interval for your transposing instrument is already there as default since you created that instrument by the Setup Wizard and Finale knows it) and have just to click OK to confirm and close the dialogue boxes.

Now your score has a real neutral key for your atonal music composition regardless of toggling Display in Concert Pitch on and off.

If you need a more detailed information from my experience just contact me at jltaques@gmail.com for my pleasure. Not so young anymore but allegro sometimes!

Taques

“Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever”

I'm not sure why you're responding to this thread.

The question has already been answered.

And the answer was the "chromatic transposition" pull down.

By the way, you are actually wrong about the instruction in the Finale manual. They are quite correct for their way of doing it. A score in concert pitch (not a score "display in concert pitch") is the starting point they suggest. There is a HUGE difference between a concert pitch score and a score "display in concert pitch".

However, since that is neither here nor there, the answer is "chromatic transposition" in teh staff tool. AS I ALREADY SAID.

Finale deals with this perfectly well. Finale even goes so far as to remember what the keyed transposition was... if you used the Wizard to set up your score, it automatically places key signatures for the transposed instruments. To change them to non-keyed transpositions, in the transposition window of the Staff tool, just click on the little button for "chromatic transposition", and you won't even have to CHOOSE a new transposition. It's already done for you.

So, one last time:

"Chromatic transposition"

Nothing else.

I'm not sure why you're responding to this thread.

The question has already been answered.

And the answer was the "chromatic transposition" pull down.

I am responding to this thread not to disagree with you but Finale’s manual.

By the way, you are actually wrong about the instruction in the Finale manual. They are quite correct for their way of doing it.

I disagree.

A score in concert pitch (not a score "display in concert pitch") is the starting point they suggest. There is a HUGE difference between a concert pitch score and a score "display in concert pitch.

Finale’s manual says: “The idea is to enter the music at “concert pitch” (as though the instrument was not a transposing instrument at all).” It is done by enabling Display in Concert Pitch. Please do not sophisticate on it.

However, since that is neither here nor there, the answer is "chromatic transposition" in teh staff tool. AS I ALREADY SAID. Finale deals with this perfectly well. Finale even goes so far as to remember what the keyed transposition was... if you used the Wizard to set up your score, it automatically places key signatures for the transposed instruments. To change them to non-keyed transpositions, in the transposition window of the Staff tool, just click on the little button for "chromatic transposition", and you won't even have to CHOOSE a new transposition. It's already done for you.

Great. I agree! But Finale’s manual does not: Finale’s manual says of: SPECIFY / DIATONICALLY / UTILITIES MENU / etc and it does not work! It is completelly different of what both of us are saying. No remembering required tranposition intervals by default, no Staff Tool mention, no Chromatic transposition and so on.

So, one last time:

"Chromatic transposition"

Nothing else.

I agree, if it is done in the right way. Both of us are right and Finale’s manual is wrong in relation to Finale itself.

Taques

“Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever”

OK, I will repeat once more: you are misunderstanding what is written in the Finale manual. It says NOTHING about "display in concert pitch" which is a completely different function.

Below is the relevant portion of the Finale User manual.

Nowhere is there a mention of using the "Display in concert pitch" feature (which is part of the Documents menu).

FROM THE FINALE USER MANUAL

Neutral key

A piece in neutral key displays no key signature. Instead, individual notes display accidentals as needed.

As far as Finale is concerned, you can create neutral key simply by setting your piece in the key of C. Any note then, not in the C diatonic scale will have its own accidental. A problem arises when you have a transposing instrument, such as a trumpet—Finale will automatically place the trumpet part in D (the usual correct trumpet transposition for a piece in C), instead of in neutral key.

The solution, then, is to avoid using Finale’s automatic part transposing feature for neutral key pieces.

To create a neutral-key transposing instrument part

The idea is to enter the music at “concert pitch” (as though the instrument was not a transposing instrument at all), then correct the key and transposition just before printing.

Enter the part in concert pitch. In this case, don’t use the Staff Tool to create an automatic staff transposition.

Click the Selection Tool ; then click to the left of the staff. The entire staff is highlighted.

Choose Transpose from the Utilities Menu. The Transposition dialog box appears.

Specify the interval needed to transpose the notes to their “written” pitches. In other words, if you’re working on a trumpet part, you’d specify Up a Second Diatonically as the transposition interval.

Click OK (or press enter).

They are saying, enter the notes at concert pitch.

If you think that "Display in concert pitch" is the only way of doing this, then I'm afraid to inform you that you appear to not know as much about Finale as you should.

Again, read carefully what is written above.

At no point does it say to use the "Display in concert pitch" function, which is in the "Document" menu.

It says "Enter the part in concert pitch."

It does not say to "DISPLAY THE PART IN CONCERT PITCH".

Before accusing anyone of being wrong, please, be sure that you yourself ARE right.

Unfortunately, in this case, you are not.

You're not starting off on a very good foot on this forum.

The only place that the Finale help file is going slightly awry, is that their method of achieving the end result is graphical only. The transposed part will NOT play back correctly.

Using the "Chromatic transposition" option WILL play back correctly.

The other thing they are forgetting in the manual is that if you have used the Wizard to create your file, then the staff transposition is automatically set. All you need to do is remove the automatic transposition in the staff tool.