My first time writing for a large ensemble (new version uploaded)

So I wrote this is chamber orchestra with percussion piece today. It is going to be the introduction to the larger work.

I've never written for wind, brass, or percussion before, so I'd like to know if everything is playable.

Also general comments are appreciated, thanks.

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New and improved!

score

Watch out. The mp3 is on a loop.

mp3

Do you have a score? It would be more helpful.

Ah, sorry. I thought I attached it, but I guess I didn't.

sorry but, i don't want to sound mean , but it's very boring.

check out some of my latest pieces for ideas

In measure 14, the tremolo marks are placed poorly, and the technique and dynamics text clash. Just bring the "arco"s down to where the "pizz"s are in measure nine.

In measure 29, the forte for the C trumpet it hitting the barline.

Similarly, in measure 48, the ff for the tuba hits the actual note. Actually, your dynamic markings aren't where they should be quite often throughout the entire score.

In your last two systems, you can often just write a half note with tremolo instead of two quarter notes with tremolo.

You also sometimes write a B# with a slur to a C. Just write a C with a tie.

Also, you misspelled "percussion", and you didn't fill out the subtitle or the composer or arranger. If you're leaving them blank, delete the filler text.

About the actual piece, it was very nice in conveying a dark sort of emotion, but there was no real theme for the listener to latch onto. I really liked the writing, but it just feels like this is a version with the melody removed, and that shouldn't happen. This piece can certainly be very good when it's all smoothed out.

EDIT: blm22, check out this post for ideas on how not to make two posts in the same thread in the span of a minute. Hint: look at the first word of the previous sentence. Also, your comment wasn't really helpful (or even polite) at all. While I made criticisms, they were all constructive, and they didn't just insult the piece (and therefore the composer as well) with no explanation. If you're going to make a comment without expounding upon it at all, it might as well at least be "That was loving sick," because either way, you aren't doing the composer any good.

Sorry if that all came off as mean, but it was just a constructive criticism.

Spherenine, thank you for your comments. It's still a work in progress, so I have not cleaned up the score at all or filled out all the fields, but I will look at what you have said. I know how to spell percussion I think late night plus glitchy keyboard equals mispellings, man percisson. That's embarrassing.

Thanks again.

blm22, could you possibly elaborate on what you found boring?

As pointed out by spherenine there are some glitches in the score but the piece has many good qualities and with a little work will make a fine composition.

I hear a theme - the bassoon introduces it - and it is a rather nice chromatic theme at that - A E F E Bb G Ab F Gb F E C# D. This theme and variations of it enter at different points, as can be seen in the score, but it may be not brought out as strongly as it might be in the orchestration.

I'm looking forward to a revised version.

Thanks for taking a look at my piece. When you say the theme"may be not brought out as strongly as it might be in the orchestration.", what exactly do you mean?

Does this mean adding more instruments to make the theme more prominent, making the theme louder than the other lines, or something else?

I tried to have several lines all based off the theme, going at once, but staggered, i.e. m. 38. Is this covering up the theme too much?

If Monkey's ate you, are you then now, monkey crap?

Sorry, I shouldn't have said that, but it just hit me and now that it is out there, too late.

I mean no insult on you, just an odd name.

Now to the music. The possible reason some may find this boring is because you have everyone in thye orchestra hitting notes at almost the same time. There is very little variation in the note lengths and when each note is hit, most everyone hits at the same time. This works in marches and some other music, but for most of us, we want variations. If the Winds are doing a whole note, let the brass do some quarter notes. Try not to let everyone stay in synch all of the time.

You do this some and where you do it is interesting. You have some good material here, just vary it and the dynamics and keep on.

Ron

Thanks for taking a look at my piece. When you say the theme"may be not brought out as strongly as it might be in the orchestration.", what exactly do you mean?

Does this mean adding more instruments to make the theme more prominent, making the theme louder than the other lines, or something else?

I tried to have several lines all based off the theme, going at once, but staggered, i.e. m. 38. Is this covering up the theme too much?

It isn't an easy question to answer. Yes, either adding more instruments or making those playing the theme louder would work.

But, on more listening, although there is quite a dramatic contrast in dynamics when the theme is soloed in bar 9, I think the piece up to bar 29 is pretty good. My suggestion would be to introduce a second theme there instead of going on with the first to provide more variety, and then back to the first theme.

The staggering does cover up the theme to some extent but it depends on what effect you want - how much you want a "classical" melody over supporting harmonic structure to a contemporary piece with a less obvious (or no) melody with a more complex inner structure. The latter is harder but worth doing. Balance between the parts is important so a listener (without a score) can follow the music.

As Ron says, having all the instruments moving together loses impact and interest if over-used.

I suspect you may not have quite decided in your own mind on what form you want the piece to take. Try out some ideas and keep the one, or ones, you like best. There isn't any "right" answer.

Herb

Watch out for the range on you horn parts, especialy on page three-four. They are very high.

Personally I think you just need more material (but not more length).

When you have the whole orchestra going, at times it looks like you have just used the copy and paste tool. Without going into specifics, I would just like to ask you to fix this, and add some interest into the piece - this is what full orchestral writing requires.

When you don't have the full orchestra going, you have some good ideas and techniques. Unfortunately it was just a little boring. I think it would help at such points if you were to embellish the ideas being played out and/or added some simple harmonic underpinning.

Quite a good piece though. Sounded quite disturbing (in a good way!).

Watch out in Measure 31: the clarinet part has 5 beats per measure.

When you have a full orchestra (or ensemble) sound, you can divide it into instrument groups which each have their own role during a tutti section. I think that having all of the instruments play parallel lines of the same scale degree makes the orchestra (or ensemble) sound very barren.

From here, you should definitely make variations of your theme, but your theme is so long that it is much more difficult to do this than making a variation of a shorter theme. Add more textures, I would say.

Good ideas in this piece.

I wanted all the instruments to play in octaves. I think it is a very cool effect.

Thanks for your comments on the technical parts, perhaps the octaves are not as effective as I thought.

Admittedly instruments in octaves does have a very cool effect, and I wouldn't be put off completely from using them if this is what you want. I would suggest though that you be sparing in your use of them. Furthermore, when you do use them, make sure the material is quite interesting/at the right place. Also consider the technical demands this can place on the performing group.

I am not listening to this piece, but I'm looking at the score. I would say generally it seems that everything is lumped together, and you have very little diversity in texture. One way to change this would be to have sections where the brass is just playing, or just the woodwinds. It's also weird to me to go Sol-Do and to have the tonic note on weak beats. It may sound fine though, I'm not sure. You also have no tempo marking. Your low octave flute in measure 14 will probably get drowned out. Someone may have already said that; I haven't read the comments. You said this is your first large ensemble piece. It kind of shows, but don't let that discourage you. I would suggest working with people a lot, and really working on how instruments sound together.

it did seem sort of dull, but i think it would be more interesting with more building up , which would maybe be a slow constant increasing in dynamics and then maybe a continous countermelody or 2.

maybe a quite a higher faster melody. nearing the height of the building.

I've made some changes. Hopefully fixed the range issues. I added more in the second section, and took out some of the octaves, and hopefully I've spelled everything correctly.

The first post contains the newest version, thanks for all your comments.

Jamie, I think I have a fair amount of diversity in texture. Aside from the opening and the octaves, I think I vary instruments a fair amount.

Alrighty, here's my illustrious review...

First off, for the record, I will not comment on the style/musicality because that's an issue for someone else to deal with. Also, I will be incredibly blunt with these comments, no sugar coating or apologies. This is what it is and you should learn more that way; that's a good thing! :)

I'm looking at this as a concert score and all octave transpositions are not in effect (e.g. bass). That is an issue right there, it should always be a transposed score unless you say so on the top of the score. The piece not being finished is not an excuse for slacking on notation. There are many funny notational issues that must be fixed. And change the key signature to the proper key! A minor! If you are any semblance of a musician, use common sense and fix it up.

Orchestration: Have you studied orchestration before? Just wondering because, for lack of a better term, this orchestration sucks. Better than some people who have less of a clue, but this is far from Rimsky-Korsakov. First off, you must show how many instruments are being used in an orchestral setting. If it's one of each (which is, in my opinion, a stupid idea,) then mark it on a title page or indicate it somehow because it is too ambiguous as it is now.

Does Finale have an instrument range indicator like Sibelius? NO?! OK, you've just warranted your switch to Sibelius. Trust me, Sibelius is the composer's haven while Finale is the publisher's haven. There are many points in this piece where instruments are out of range or in a very poor range. Did you put them in range as if it was a transposed score while it was not transposed? A big no no. Fix it. Here are some examples:

• Horn starting @ 24-29
  
• Bassoon @ 54-end
  
• Cellos @ 49-end
  

The horn is way too high and the bassoon and cellos have note written too low and thus impossible to play.

It seems that you have the winds and brass playing SATB configuration for the majority. OK, another HUGE no no. The string operate like this, the winds etc. do not! The Horn is not the highest instrument despite it's always above the trumpets, the highest. (It's a long and complicated tradition that hasn't died out, yet.) With only four brass instruments, it cannot function as SATB because the horn is too weak on it's own to compete with the other instruments in the section. The same applies to the winds, the oboe and bassoon will get lost in the texture. The woodwinds are primarily used for solo color and such to enhance the strings. The brass usually share this and often dominate the texture so that the strings and winds back up the brass. That's why it's stupid to have only 4 winds and 4 brass because they will be ineffective at their function within the orchestra. My advice? Try re-orchestrating this for a "Classical" style orchestra, 8 winds (2 of each) and 2 horns, 2 trumpets, 2 trombones, and 1 tuba.

Percussion: Well, again very ambiguous. You must say what instrument that "X" thing is. I don't know if it's a cowbell or a flexatone. Oh, it's neither? Exactly. As far as the timpani, the low D's will not sound good at all. Only on high quality timpani and with a highly trained timpanist (which is hard to come by even in professional orchestras nowadays) will make it sound good. Transpose all the D's up an octave so it sound like Timpani and not a bass drum.

One last thing: DO NOT LET THE COMPUTER PLAYBACK DICTATE WHAT YOU WRITE!!! This is a mistake that countless composers get into, myself included, when they compose via computer. The sounds do not, repeat, do not!!! sound like they will in performance. It can sound like each individual instrument, but as a whole, IT DOES NOT sound like the real thing. My advice, just shut off the fancy virtual instrument samples and just use plain old MIDI. That way you will know if the notes line up. The orchestration is completely up to you since no computer can accurately simulate an entire orchestra on the fly.

I hope you didn't come out too bruised from this. Good luck on your endeavors; you have good ideas, but you must craft them to make music. Philip Glass told me the other day that in order to compose via synthesis (as opposed to analysis) we must master the techniques of composition and learn them so that they become one with the synthesis so that everything we compose will never be like something we have already done; being consistently synthesis.

I agree that there are many problems with the orchestration, especially with the instrument ranges. I don't agree that it's "stupid" to have an instrumentation with single wood winds and brass. It's not that uncommon, at least not these days. There are many smaller chamber orchestras that work like this (sometimes even with single strings too), even though they generally don't have a tuba. It is of course rather challenging to orchestrate for an orchestra where you don't have homophone groups but a great variety of single instruments, so it might indeed be easier to write for less different instruments but a greater number of them. That could be a very classical orchestra with just flutes, oboes, bassoons, horns and strings, or something entirely different.

I also don't really understand why you seem to suggest the woodwinds and brass cannot be used as groups on their own (sorry if I misunderstood you there). Using them as mere colours and solo instruments was true in the classics, but it already changed with Beethoven. You can perfectly well have the woodwinds, the brasses, or subgroups and different mixes (such as between woodwinds and horns) play on their own quite homophonically. It's just a matter at mixing them right, in appropriate registers with appropriate dynamics. (But of course having horns on top of a "brass mix" isn't advisable.)

Yeah, a bit to general. Of course anything is possible. But I sugested this because clearly this composer needs to start at the begining for writing for winds and brass. Your talking about brass/w.w. orchestraion that gets very complicated esp. with ballance. I didn't want to give everything at once, or I'd have to write a book, just like Samual Adler.

Fair enough.