If I feel a teacher is necessary, am I ashamedly mediocre?

I have always considered teachers crucial.

That being said, I have no composition teachers in my area, so I am getting away this summer to study composition with som actual professors, and I am looking fowards to it very much. I think it will help my pieces so much.

Teachers point you in the right direction, and keep you from making wrong turns.

They also usually have the wisdom of experience on their side, which self taught people cannot get from wikipedia.

I cannot get an interpretation of Bach's cello suites from the internet, and recordings do not explain to me why the performers hold out that particular note. My teacher will explain to me the history of the performance of his cello suites, why she believes in this particular interpretation, and many other valuable things that make me grateful to have an instructor.

Music is a learning process. Having a teacher is not unashamedly mediocre, going without a teacher is unashamedly pretentious. Sometimes it does work, but you can never ever go wrong with someone who knows what they are doing.

Having a teacher is not unashamedly mediocre, going without a teacher is unashamedly pretentious.

Nice way of demonstrating sterilium's point that the snobbery goes both ways ;)

Sometimes it does work, but you can never ever go wrong with someone who knows what they are doing.

Yeah, sure... Unless they happen to disagree with you in taste and that becomes a problem.

A composition teacher requires a specific... personality and a very special way of dealing with people's work. The reason some people say composition can't be taught is not based on anything more than the incompetence of some teachers to do the job properly.

Like this I posted:

http://www.youngcomposers.com/forum/extract-translantion-theo-brandm-llers-article-composition-13134.html

That nobody read or commented on I guess. This is a pretty well known dude here in Germany, and he brings up some very good points.

A composition teacher should open the doors and windows, so to speak. They have to shake things up, and promote freedom but also consequence.

A composition teacher's only weapon, remember, is the ability to analyze something and react to it accordingly. Like any teacher, essentially, they're not magicians. A composition teacher can be very bad for someone's development as an artist, it can be very good or not make any difference. There's no way to know unless you know the person well and work can be done within this relationship.

Like DOFTS put it, you need to bounce ideas off someone. A teacher is there FOR that, and not only that but they can also give ideas back. This idea exchange can only happen with certain kinds of people, in certain kinds of contexts.

Taking "composition classes" is inevitably a risk, because the subject matter lends itself to such a huge problem if it's handled poorly. I've met teachers that insisted on working only on modern techniques, others insist on style copies. Their students become frustrated and find their own personal voices inhibited amidst the complicated harmony/theory/technique lessons and it doesn't help them very much to develop their own ideas if they have to follow orders constantly.

Like the article said, today the freedom to pick styles and aesthetics urges one to be properly informed of what there is (as to be able to choose) but it also eliminates the obligation to write in any specific style or with any specific technique.

There are then those schools of thought that say "You're not a real composer unless you have written 10 string quartets, 1 symphony, bla bla bla" and urge the student to fill up a repertoire of unnecessary, forced and pass

I entirely agree with SSC. Also:

Teachers point you in the right direction, and keep you from making wrong turns.

Maybe, but that isn't always just helpful. I don't think it helps ones development as a composer if one wants to do everything right and perfect the first time. I find it quite important to actually take the risk of "making wrong turns" and see how it turns out. Maybe you'll learn that it was indeed a wrong turn and have learned something by personal experience, or you might learn that it's not a wrong turn at all, but exactly what you want and continue to explore this direction.

I find the willingness to take risks, to do things where you don't know how exactly they will turn out, to be crucial for a composer.

Of course teachers can give you valuable advice and if they explain it well, you may very well understand it without having to try out every single thing yourself. But it's important that if you disagree with the teacher in such a case or simply don't understand the reasoning behind it you are allowed to still try it out. If students had always just done what their teachers told them to do we'd be lacking a lot of awesome music today. Probably we'd still be singing gregorian chant or something. I guess not even that.

The history of music is a history of taking wrong turns. Quite like evolution :P

Haha. Well, I suppose I can only relate to actual instrumental teachers, because as I've noted I have yet to actually have a composition lesson with a teacher.

I am looking fowards to it, and I will be able to see if a teacher for composition specifically is a good thing. In all other areas, teachers have done good things for me, so I suppose I jumped to conclusions in applying it to composition.

I read aneapolitanwouldwork's quote to mean, helps prevent bad habits. Such as not editing work, writing incorrectly for instruments, etc. I think a good teacher will allow you to make mistakes and learn from them.

Thank you!

The history of music is a history of taking wrong turns. Quite like evolution :P

Good point. :thumbsup: Let's illustrate this with some concrete examples. If there weren't any "wrong turns" happening, we might have all missed out on Debussy, Bartok, Schoenberg, Varese, Xenakis, and Zappa. That's all of the examples I can think of as of this moment's notice.

Monteverdi probably was one of the "wrongest turns" in music history :P

At least that's what his contemporaries thought.

I'm one of the self-taught/uneducated "composers". I've been teaching myself for two years now, and have come a long way. I owe any advancement I've made to obsession and modern technology. My notation software has acted as my air-conditioned car, carrying me across the vast desert of ignorance.

My main reason for not seeking tutelage, besides some monetary/ambition issues, has been pride. I've been trying to convince myself that I'm some sort of genius, destined to become the next Mozart through the joys trial and error.

Keeping with the transportation theme, that logic is akin to a train without rails. Sure, a train can progress without rails, but neither far nor fast. It's always possible of course that you'd end up in the same place as the guided train, but not without a horrendously bumpy ride and a large dose of determined dumb luck(you would see some interesting scenery though:P).

The point I'm obviously trying to make is, I think that one should seek out the guidance of a good teacher. That sort of humility redirects personal pride, and aims it directly at the rewards of personal achievement.

I think I'll throw another log on the fire:D

Should one go to a self-taught teacher or a formally educated teacher?

Having a teacher gives you professional and experienced feedback. If you are self-taught you can often make mistakes and not realise. Even if your performance *sounds* good, there could still be technical mistakes that a teacher would pick up on.

There's actually two people I have taken lessons from.

A youth orchestra director/ composer.

If you're in band you HAVE played a piece by him... arranged or composed.

And the other has her PhD from UF and teaches at the local CC... just theory though there..

Cool huh?

Ticheli?

Good old Frank gave me dating advice at lunch once.

Cool huh?

OK, so let's get this straight:

we're getting advice on whether a teacher is important or not from people who have either

a. never HAD a teacher

b. only had a teacher for a short time

or

c. have never had a (specifically) composition teacher

Anyone who tells me "I have never had a teacher and I don't think it is necessary" is talking out his donkey. If you've never HAD a teacher for a particular subject, how do you KNOW that you wouldn't be advancing at a considerably faster pace with a teacher?

The proof that a teacher is a net advantage in the acquiring of ANY skill, is that if you happen to have either a particular facility or a difficulty with any single aspect of that craft, a teacher will know where to guide you to either improve that which needs it, or explore OTHER facets which you would not have thought of on your own, thereby avoiding unnecessary repetition.

Trying to learn something you don't know on your own is like trying to get somewhere without a roadmap and with both your headlights burnt out. You MIGHT be damned lucky and get there, but there's a considerably higher probability that you'll end up off the road, in a ditch, as bear food.

I think in that respect it's better to talk about a specific method of self-discipline when it comes to studying. I don't think people just come equipped with an effective self-didactic method, nor even an idea of what looks like. What you can pick up from a teacher, or from others, is learning how to actually learn.

If your method is good, you don't need a teacher nor anyone else in practice to "guide you". It can help, and it can be a lot of fun, but it's not strictly necessary since you'll always branch out and keep studying/etc things to improve your knowledge of the fields that need improvement. In other words, you'd be able to do the guidance on your own which also implies that if you have no idea you'll know when to seek out help from someone more experienced in what you need.

Being self taught is less about being literally independent from the world, and more like just seeking out resources and having a good eye for when you need help and when you can do without. Though like I said, that's not something that comes naturally and getting a method that "works" is just as hard as finding a good teacher.

Being self taught is less about being literally independent from the world, and more like just seeking out resources and having a good eye for when you need help and when you can do without. Though like I said, that's not something that comes naturally and getting a method that "works" is just as hard as finding a good teacher.

I disagree about the difficulty of finding a good teacher. My instructor is amazing. I can't tell you what his music sounds like because I have deliberately not listened to it so as not to be influenced by it, but he is an amazing instructor. And I found him fairly easily.

I disagree about the difficulty of finding a good teacher. My instructor is amazing. I can't tell you what his music sounds like because I have deliberately not listened to it so as not to be influenced by it, but he is an amazing instructor. And I found him fairly easily.

... Well YOU did, but not because you found someone that works well for you easily it means that it's easy to find someone that works for everyone else. Yea?

OK, so let's get this straight:

we're getting advice on whether a teacher is important or not from people who have either

a. never HAD a teacher

b. only had a teacher for a short time

or

c. have never had a (specifically) composition teacher

Anyone who tells me "I have never had a teacher and I don't think it is necessary" is talking out his donkey. If you've never HAD a teacher for a particular subject, how do you KNOW that you wouldn't be advancing at a considerably faster pace with a teacher?

The proof that a teacher is a net advantage in the acquiring of ANY skill, is that if you happen to have either a particular facility or a difficulty with any single aspect of that craft, a teacher will know where to guide you to either improve that which needs it, or explore OTHER facets which you would not have thought of on your own, thereby avoiding unnecessary repetition.

Trying to learn something you don't know on your own is like trying to get somewhere without a roadmap and with both your headlights burnt out. You MIGHT be damned lucky and get there, but there's a considerably higher probability that you'll end up off the road, in a ditch, as bear food.

Well said. If you have the opportunity to have a teacher then grab it. If out of necessity you don't have a teacher available for you, you can start reading up and learning indirectly (where I come from, there are NO composition teachers within my proximity that I know of).

I think youngcomposers has interactive lessons for members who want to learn being given by other members who are teachers so that's a good start instead of having none at all right? Besides, you won't get to have your own method and voice unless you get to have some grassroots of sorts.

... Well YOU did, but not because you found someone that works well for you easily it means that it's easy to find someone that works for everyone else. Yea?

I actually think my instructor would work well for most people. He's bloody brilliant. Unless you need someone to tell you what to do. In which case he's not right for you. I just think one has to both look in many different places, and be willing to go to those places if they find the right person. There are good instructors out there. Maybe it's not easy, I probably worded that wrong. Perhaps what I should have said is it's not 'prohibitively difficult' to find a good instructor.

I actually think my instructor would work well for most people. He's bloody brilliant. Unless you need someone to tell you what to do. In which case he's not right for you. I just think one has to both look in many different places, and be willing to go to those places if they find the right person. There are good instructors out there. Maybe it's not easy, I probably worded that wrong. Perhaps what I should have said is it's not 'prohibitively difficult' to find a good instructor.

... well I meant that he's only one person! Even if he is amazing and all, there's only one of him to go around and people in other places and etc may not find someone as good as easily as you did. That's what I meant.

Right, I dig that. What I'm saying is that if I can find someone like that in Oklahoma, of all places, then there are others out there. There have to be. It may not be obvious where they are, but they're there. They have to be. It seems preposterous that there arne't more good teachers out there.

I didn't read the whole thread, but I seriously can't imagine anyone perferring to stumble around in the dark on their own over having a teachers. Seems to be kind of fruitless.

Having said that, there are many reasons why people can't obtain a good teacher. And let's face it, a lousy teacher can often be worse than no teacher at all.

Lack of finances is the first thing that comes to mind. It can be costly to take lessons. Especially if the teacher is lousy and isn't truly paying attention to the individual student's needs and ability. A teacher can actually hold a good student back and/or discourage them.

I've bad experiences with music teachers who were so conventional and boring that I would rather just learn on my own. Unfortunately they turned me off to teachers so much that I never did find a good one. So I'm entirely self-learned (not self-taught!).

Even learning on my own, I still had teachers, they just weren't live. I defintely consider back and beethoven to be my "teachers" as well as many other composers and artists.

I've also used a lot of "how-to" videos recently. Clearly those are teachers. They just aren't here live to give me personal advice on my actual performance.

I would love nothing more than to have a whole barrage of live personal trainers. Music theory teachers, as well as teachers who teach the actual physical skills of playing the actual instruments.

For me, the fact that these two things aren't seperated was agravating in the early going. I think I had "music teachers" when what I really needed starting out where "instrument teachers".

The last thing a new student needs is a stupid teachers standing there tapping his or her foot trying to get a new student to keep TIME! My God! How can you keep time when you haven't even learned how to play the frigg'in instrument yet!!!?

I think teachers would do well to teach the students to just play the instruments first. Let the student make whatever noise and racket they want. Just get a feel for how to play the instrument FIRST. Then and, only then, move on to trying to play in time.

The problem is that there really isn't much of a seperation between "music" teachers, and "instrument" teachers. I think there should be. Because these are really two entirely different things.

Just my thoughts