On the Modern Condition of Music

I'd say that Symphony of Psalms is a far better work than any of those you've listed. Better, and far more representative of who Strawinski really was. And I know a slew of musicologists who would agree with me.

So I'd have to disagree with you, since some of Strawinski's neo-classical works are actually far better identifiers of his greatness and his musical identity.

Fair enough. Symphony of Psalms is also a nice work, so I won't disagree with you on that piece. Stravinsky's first period is by far his most interesting to me, and among the average concert consumer, I'd say I'm not in the minority.

I don't know the musicologists you know, and I could really care less. I have yet to meet a high school student who's played or heard of most of Stravinsky's Neo-Classical works. Most have heard of the Rite, Firebird, and maybe the Symphony of Psalms.

What put Stravinsky on the map for many today is the Rite or the Firebird (obviously because of Fantasia or some other usage), and what really set him apart along with his diversity in style was his apparent obsession with the ancient, not Neo-Classicism alone. In fact, it wasn't Neo-Classicism but rather his use of ancient classical Greek melodies (expanding on the movement towards Neo-Classicism). I mean, after all, Tchaikovsky, Grieg, and Reger were all well known composers who "dressed themselves in old clothes" when their works hearkened back to the Classical period. It's not like Neo-Classicism itself was invented by Stravinsky when it was clearly becoming a trend in the late 1800s.

Beyond all of this, no one of average musical experience is going to know this well enough to be able to distinguish between these periods of his career, not with the way music education is prioritized in the U.S. It may be different up there in Canada, Cowboy. Your average high school music student probably won't know the Symphony of Psalms unless they've performed it.

Yeah' date=' ask the average person about Ravel, and they'll think of his Bolero... Are you really taking that system to measure goodness or relevance?

Otherwise I lost you guys in the discussion long ago...[/quote']

Go find yourself in the discussion. Then come back and offer your opinion.

...I have yet to meet a high school student who's played or heard of most of Stravinsky's Neo-Classical works. Most have heard of the Rite, Firebird, and maybe the Symphony of Psalms.

So...level of familiarity with High Schoolers is a how one should judge a composer's style? ...because a piece is the most common and obvious sample, it instantly becomes the definition of their style?

:huh:

High School?

Yeah, ask the average person about Ravel, and they'll think of his Bolero... Are you really taking that system to measure goodness or relevance?

Otherwise I lost you guys in the discussion long ago...

Go find yourself in the discussion. Then come back and offer your opinion.

All The Things makes a good point...too bad it's promptly ignored by Anti-A.

So...level of familiarity with High Schoolers is a how one should judge a composer's style? ...because a piece is the most common and obvious sample, it instantly becomes the definition of their style?

:huh:

High School?

...

All The Things makes a good point...too bad it's promptly ignored by Anti-A.

I'm arguing that there are a great deal of things a student entering into higher education must know to select the right school for what they want to do. I'm stating examples applicable to the knowledge base of a high school student. Overall, it's impractical to believe that the average high school student wanting to learn how to write music of their own personal interest will know what the hell to do. Generalizations, while certainly not know for precision, are useful on the merits of helping students pick the right college.

Others seem to be arguing... well, that it's not okay to generalize... and it's not unreasonable for a high school student to be able to decide what education would be the best flight plan. I find this to be a completely unreasonable viewpoint.

So, no, All the Things doesn't really make an important point on the topic at all. That's why I gave him the option to go read the thread from the last 2-3 pages and then come back and post his feedback. I could have told him to go to hell and die there. But I didn't. I think, with all things considered, I've been more than reasonable and nice to people (with the exception of SSC, who just hates everything I post - to each their own I say).

While it's nice to think of me as the old, mean jerk out here picking and choosing who is worth replying to and who isn't, I do hold people to the expectation that they read at least a page or so back to get a grip on what is being discussed. As I've failed to keep anyone on topic with the OP, I'm simply leaving the discussion open to whatever anyone wants to talk about. One can do the courtesy of reading at least a page or so to understand the discussion.

I hope that clears things up for ya.

-AA

Stravinsky's first period is by far his most interesting to me, and among the average concert consumer, I'd say I'm not in the minority.

I have yet to meet a high school student who's played or heard of most of Stravinsky's Neo-Classical works.

Most have heard of the Rite, Firebird, and maybe the Symphony of Psalms.

What put Stravinsky on the map for many today is the Rite or the Firebird (obviously because of Fantasia or some other usage)

our average high school music student probably won't know the Symphony of Psalms unless they've performed it.

Stop hammering on the "more people know his early works" point, because that doesn't mean anything in terms of how good the pieces are, to be honest. Everybody knows the Raider's March too, I wouldn't exactly call that a great piece.

BUT!

Stravinsky isn't really the center of discussion here.

I'm arguing that there are a great deal of things a student entering into higher education must know to select the right school for what they want to do. I'm stating examples applicable to the knowledge base of a high school student. Overall, it's impractical to believe that the average high school student wanting to learn how to write music of their own personal interest will know what the hell to do. Generalizations, while certainly not know for precision, are useful on the merits of helping students pick the right college.

Where did you make that argument in recent posts? Your last couple of them in the thread seem to be concerned with the level of familiarity people have with Stravinsky's earlier works compared to his neoclassical period ones.

How about.......we get back on topic, so that any one off topic can find where they're at? eh? eh? ;)

I think, with all things considered, I've been more than reasonable and nice to people (with the exception of SSC, who just hates everything I post - to each their own I say).

I don't hate YOU necessarily, I hate this sort of tone you assume when you talk of scraggy you have no idea about. Specially concerning style, the "avant garde" or anything of the sort. Gardener already hinted at it, your opinions are in no way balanced or objective because of the IMMENSE bias that shows through.

Your entire argument is "I had a scrafty education experience :<, I hope other people like never have to go through what I had to go through. What can I do about that?"

The answer is NOTHING. There's NOTHING you can do to prevent millions of people from having bad experiences when it comes to musical education.

If you want to TRY to do something, you should go and get a teacher post at a well-established and influential institution and from there try to change the way things are taught. But as it stands, no, there's nothing you can do. Nevermind that the situation is drastically different from where you live elsewhere in the world and there are millions of different institutions that teach music all over the world.

So it's probable that you're just wasting your time on a problem that does not exist. That there are people that have had problems with their education is true, but the fact is that this is unavoidable. The education system CANNOT be planned around the exceptions!

Nothing you've said so far holds any ground in the real world, nevermind the insane-o stuff you've been saying like that scraggy with Hegel and sonata form, or that atonality was poorly voiced jazz, or now this with Stravinsky.

I mean it's nice to have opinions. But due to the context of this entire thread, these things you've said only make you look really, really, bad. How am I supposed to take someone's opinion on modern musical education seriously if they believe atonality is POORLY VOICED JAZZ?

Exactly.

Stop hammering on the "more people know his early works" point, because that doesn't mean anything in terms of how good the pieces are, to be honest. Everybody knows the Raider's March too, I wouldn't exactly call that a great piece.

BUT!

Stravinsky isn't really the center of discussion here.

Where did you make that argument in recent posts? Your last couple of them in the thread seem to be concerned with the level of familiarity people have with Stravinsky's earlier works compared to his neoclassical period ones.

How about.......we get back on topic, so that any one off topic can find where they're at? eh? eh? ;)

Here is where I make my current discussion point, more or less...

Obviously, we are not talking about the quality of works. We're talking about the familiarity of works among those who are looking for the "right school" or "right professor" to help them pursue their interests in music.

I don't hate YOU necessarily, I hate this sort of tone you assume when you talk of scraggy you have no idea about. Specially concerning style, the "avant garde" or anything of the sort. Gardener already hinted at it, your opinions are in no way balanced or objective because of the IMMENSE bias that shows through.

Just because I didn't gain the appreciation for it that you did doesn't mean I have no idea what I'm talking about. My opinions AREN'T going to be any more objective than YOUR opinions, but if you read coherently enough, you would find areas were I concede my position to a certain degree.

Your entire argument is "I had a scrafty education experience :<' date=' I hope other people like never have to go through what I had to go through. What can I do about that?"

The answer is NOTHING. There's NOTHING you can do to prevent millions of people from having bad experiences when it comes to musical education.

If you want to TRY to do something, you should go and get a teacher post at a well-established and influential institution and from there try to change the way things are taught. But as it stands, no, there's nothing you can do. Nevermind that the situation is drastically different from where you live elsewhere in the world and there are millions of different institutions that teach music all over the world.[/quote']

What, and waste more money on an education I don't believe in?! Seriously? That's YOUR solution?! If the roles were reversed, if you were facing an education where YOU had to compose TONAL music instead of writing the music YOU want to write, would you take anyone seriously who said to you, "Go back and get MORE education in Tonal music"?

I think you wouldn't, but I'm not you and wouldn't presume to think of what you would do. Either you would and be miserable or you haven't thought through that whole mess on your end because you've never had to. Don't write off my views just because of your success. That's just another instance of your lack of perspective, and you need to get your head out of your donkey to even understand why.

So it's probable that you're just wasting your time on a problem that does not exist. That there are people that have had problems with their education is true, but the fact is that this is unavoidable. The education system CANNOT be planned around the exceptions!

The education system should NOT be planned around the pleadings of a man who, 50 years ago, claimed the only way this music would survive is if it were recognized by the academic community. We would be having a different discussion 50 years ago than we are today, sure, but your bias certainly shows in YOUR position... The music education system CAN account for the exceptions and better itself for them, but by and large, the composition faculties CHOOSE not to. I shouldn't HAVE to choose between a school within the region that I live and one 2000 miles away! And just because YOU don't think music education can be better doesn't mean it can't.

Nothing you've said so far holds any ground in the real world' date=' nevermind the insane-o stuff you've been saying like that scraggy with Hegel and sonata form, or that atonality was poorly voiced jazz, or now this with Stravinsky.

I mean it's nice to have opinions. But due to the context of this entire thread, these things you've said only make you look really, really, bad. How am I supposed to take someone's opinion on modern musical education seriously if they believe atonality is POORLY VOICED JAZZ?

Exactly.[/quote']

My name is an anecdote! Get over it! In fact, I read your lesson thread with a student on how to compose and I laughed because your method is exactly how I was taught to compose contemporary music. If you really want to know what I think about that, PM me, and I'll be happy to explain.

Do you truly believe you can rely ONLY on the textbooks of music history to give you an accurate picture of the development of music? Really? Your perspective is so terribly removed from reality that you have no truly objective thought to offer either! It's hypocritical to say what you do about me and, at the other extreme, do the EXACT SAME THING! If anything, you and I are opposite sides of the same coin, but at least I try to be honest with my intentions.

And I don't care what makes me look "good" or look "bad." I'd think you'd have figured that out by now. The Hegel reference is a philosophical reference on the times of the Classical composers. Whether they read Hegel's work or not, many of these composers' audiences almost CERTAINLY did, and as we know, the audiences did tend to dictate what the composers would write because the entirety of the practice itself functions as a play on audience expectation. Composers who truly achieved elegance in their music are the ones in the Classical period that we first begin studying - Mozart and Haydn. Your assessment of this period contradicts this very basic schema, and yet you claim that I'M the one out of touch with reality.

I can't count on all my appendages how many times I've heard a music history professor or musicologist in general describe the Classical period as a period of elegance representative of the composer's yearning for perfection. But I'm not surprised by how strikingly different your view is from my own. After all, you think the period of avant garde was a natural, logical progression. And I suppose you think that has NOTHING to do with the onset of the modern age. Do you even UNDERSTAND the impact of Modernism from a cultural standpoint or it's implications? I imagine that you do not from your explanation in your lesson with Marsbars.

Either you're arguing just to hear yourself argue or you truly believe you have the right answer. I find either to be utterly ridiculous... especially your own presumption of being the "truth-bearer" in this discussion. Your skills in argumentation, lacking as they have been, only further decayed the discussion.

But I don't hate you either.

"They must find it difficult...those who have taken authority as the truth, rather than truth as the authority."

- Gerald Massey

See. You have my pity.

*laughs at the abundance of academic posturing in this thread*

:whistling:

I have no further comments at this point beyond what I already said. :>

Just in case anyone was expecting yet another wall of text from me, no luck this time. I'm not going to dignify that ranting with a real answer, lol.

I have no further comments at this point beyond what I already said. :>

Just in case anyone was expecting yet another wall of text from me, no luck this time. I'm not going to dignify that ranting with a real answer, lol.

You haven't really dignified any of my posts with an intelligent answer. I haven't really expected a real answer from you at all, lol.