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I agree with everyone in saying this is getting to be a stupid discussion

With your brilliant mind, Fredrick, I'm pretty sure that you must agree with me that because Gesualdo and Machaut both used the Tristan Chord long before it was called the Tristan chord, it was obviously they that invented Jazz...

Shall I mention a Beethoven piano sonata (no. 18, I believe), that also uses the exact same key and chord spacing tristan chord... he obviously... OBVIOUSLY invented jazz.

since they used, and therefore invented, the Tristan chord before it was even called the Tristan chord, and because the inventor of the Tristan chord obviously had to have invented jazz, then Wagner most certainly did not invent jazz... by your own logic you've managed to prove yourself completely incompetent of handling basic music history and theory.

Saying that Wagner, a high romantic composer (and I am not capitalizing "romantic" just because everyone except you has enough sense to understand that I mean the romantic era, not romance) invented Jazz, is like saying that Bach invented serial music because of the subject his b minor fugue in the first book of the Well-Tempered Clavier. The fact that the Tristan chord sounds like jazz does not mean that they are one in the same, or even derivatives of each other.

Let's just name the major scale after me, and then we can say that I invented tonality.... I mean, because I managed to use one in a piece I wrote, I obviously must have affected everyone from Bach to Wagner.

Until you actually manage to competently and completely refute all of that, or more importantly anything that QC has said, I can just assume that this is a stupid discussion not worth my time anymore.

With your brilliant mind, Fredrick, I'm pretty sure that you must agree with me that because Gesualdo and Machaut both used the Tristan Chord long before it was called the Tristan chord, it was obviously they that invented Jazz...

Shall I mention a Beethoven piano sonata (no. 18, I believe), that also uses the exact same key and chord spacing tristan chord... he obviously... OBVIOUSLY invented jazz.

since they used, and therefore invented, the Tristan chord before it was even called the Tristan chord, and because the inventor of the Tristan chord obviously had to have invented jazz, then Wagner most certainly did not invent jazz... by your own logic you've managed to prove yourself completely incompetent of handling basic music history and theory.

... ACTUALLY, none of those guys (Gesualdo, Macheut, etc) did the same thing as Wagner, much less in the same way and with the same meaning or context. Just to be clear here, the tristan chord isn't just famous because Schoeberg made it popular, it's famous because it represents the late romantic era's harmonic language and lack of clarity, which (some) think lead to the inevitable conclusion that became the German expressionism in music (and it's consequence, atonality ala Schoenberg.)

If anything, it led to atonality, not to JAZZ, LOL.

Maybe ATONAL JAZZ?

...

Eh, silly discussion is silly.

SSC brings up the good point that the earlier ones didn't resolve it with a dissonance... point taken... Also... Jazz definately doesn't use the chord in the same meaning or context as Wagner uses it... which futher reinforces SSC's last comment.

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What do you know about Hendrix, lol!

Did you know: Hendrix's most known drummer, John "Mitch" Mitchell, had a jazz background and like many of his drummer contemporaries was strongly influenced by the work of known jazz musicians, like Elvin Jones, Max Roach and Joe Morello.

Mitchell pioneered a style of drumming, which would later become known as fusion.

This is a "lead" style of playing, distinguished by interplay with lead instruments such as guitar or keyboards, and the melding of jazz and rock drumming styles.

He is actually one the pioneers in modern jazz rock drumming!

ok, first of all, I KNOW that Hendrix had nothing to do with the (read carefully now) genesis of jazz because he was born 50 years after the event.

as for his drummer being a jazzman, all that says is that his drummer was a jazzman. It actually says very little about Hendrix himself.

I don't know if you actually think these posts of yours are educational, but generally speaking, for something to BE educational, it has to contain at least SOME element that isn't entirely pulled out of a hat.

Fredrik,

I love how you actually have no clue what you're talking about and just copy/paste directly from wikipedia articles.

:laugh:

Mitchell pioneered a style of drumming, which would later become known as fusion.[citation needed] This is a "lead" style of playing distinguished by interplay with lead instruments such as guitar or keyboards, and the melding of jazz and rock drumming styles. Alongside Hendrix's revolutionary guitar work and songwriting, Mitchell's playing helped redefine rock music drumming.[4] He did this, incidentally, using 'traditional grip'.

- Wikipedia

Nice try, now go away.

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Okay! Tell me one piece you know of Hendrix?

I don't HAVE to tell you.

You're stating that Hendrix was an "originator of american style of jazz".

Your entire statement is anti-logical.

Do you even KNOW when jazz started?

And please, don't go off to quote some Wikipedia article.

Well, since you like to quote Wikipedia: Much has been written about its possible harmonic functions or voice leading (melodic function), and the motif has been interpreted in various ways. For instance, Vogel (1962, p. 12) points out the "chord" in earlier works by Guillaume de Machaut, Carlo Gesualdo, Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, or Louis Spohr (Vogel 1962: 12), as in the following example from Beethoven's Piano Sonata No. 18, tempo allegro:

Image:Beethoven Sonata Op. 31, No. 3 Tristan chord.PNG - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Wikipedia even says that Wagner was not the one to "invent" the Tristan chord. So there. By your own logic, if the "Tristan chord" started jazz, it was not Wagner who first used it. Therefore, he was not the originator of jazz.

EDIT: I'm also quite familiar with Jimi Hendrix and I can safely say that his music has very little to do with jazz. His drummer was jazz influenced. That's irrelevant though. Plus, how could Jimi be the pioneer of American jazz when Gershwin was writing in the style before Jimi was even born?

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Like the Mahler discussion from before, I actually suspect that you are totally ignorant about Jimi Hendrix aswell!

Dearest Fredrik,

You have been warned before about multiple posting.

Kindly use the edit function rather than posting many replies in a row.

Like the Mahler discussion from before, I actually suspect that you are totally ignorant about Jimi Hendrix aswell!

You ARE kidding right?

Please, list your credentials, so we at least KNOW who we are dealing with here.

And yes, you DO need to list your musical credentials since you are setting yourself up as the ultimate arbiter on the issues you keep bringing up.

I don't consider "credentials" to be who you sat on a bed with chatting about music. Nor is that book you read on Leonard Bernstein a "credential". So please, oblige us.

As far as Mahler is concerned, simply because you "say it is so" doesn't make you right. It just makes you an obstinate fool.

And as far as Hendrix is concerned, are you ignoring everything I've said so far? I already told you: Hendrix had nothing to do with the origins of jazz. Why are you harping on about Hendrix? It has absolutely NO bearing what so ever on this entire thread.

You're so cool, Fredrik.

Yeah, agreed, you're an awesome guy Frederik.

Yeah, agreed, you're an awesome guy Frederik.

I think the sarcasm was pretty blatant in Pianobeast's post... :whistling:

I'm a drummer, so I should know

There's your first problem.

Sorry! But right now the subject is Hendrix!

yes, because you've already given up on even attempting to win the Tristan chord discussion, since it's a hopeless case for yourself.

Like the Mahler discussion from before, I actually suspect that you are totally ignorant about Jimi Hendrix aswell!

Like the Wagner discussion from before, I actually suspect that you are also totally ignorant about Jimi Hendrix as well...

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Fredrik - stop making a fool of yourself.

Everyone else - ignore it, and it will go away!!

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Dear Fredrik,

These 'lessons' you speak of go against the YC teaching system, and serve partly to undermine it. If you wish to continue handing out your own brand of knowledge, it is necessary for you to apply for a teacher's post. If accepted, you could start a thread on this stuff.

If you keep spouting off, though, without permission, your threads will eventually have to be closed.

So, Fredrick, since you're going to start teaching about Hendrix, does this mean that I can start teaching everyone about your idiocy? Technically, since my area isn't about music, I don't really need to apply for a teaching post.

Lesson one, as only one lesson is necessary: Fredrick doesn't know what he's talking about...

Here are my "many" proofs, which require you to have passed the first grade to comprehend.

Argument one- your past posts in this discussion

Argument two- honestly everyone else will agree that I don't need another argument, as argument one stands on its own.

Oh, and the whole "Hendrix" issue- if there even is one- will be resolved once your own ignorance to yourself has been solved.

I think that your big problem with this whole Wagner thing (you yourself started the talk about Hendrix, so I'll let you and whatever other voices you hear in your head continue and finish that one), is that, aside from being president of the "Wagner influenced the Renaissance and Classical composers" cult, you think that it's the ONLY important moment in music history... I'll say that it was important... but not the most important... What you've managed to say to us all about Wagner is that he invented the Tristan chord, which has been mentioned before to have existed in earlier works... And therefore you are saying that Wagner influenced people who were dead by the time he was around.

And Wagner didn't kill tonality... there are plenty of composers today that stay in the tonal realm... and Wagner, even in Tristan and Isolde, does utilize the Tonic; he merely modulates a lot more freely to new tonics as opposed to other contemporary composers.

Oh, and don't give me that "we're still talking about Hendrix" bull... when you're finished "talking" about Hendrix, or rather listening to yourself, you can go back and read our comments regarding it... and then address them.

Fredrik, read:

http://www.youngcomposers.com/forum/masterclass-jazz-history-styles-artists-7017.html

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Hi Franzman,

Have been talking with my professional jazz musician and friend Max Schultz!

Jimi Hendrix is first of all a genius in improvising. Max Schultz also thinks that he can trace John Coltrane influence in Hendrix works like: ""Hear my train a' comin' och "Machine Gun".

What do you say?

Fred

Fredrik, please take the time to answer SPECIFIC comments directed at you.

Regardless of what your friend Max thinks, you have been hopping around from topic to topic, with absolutely no consistancy through-out this thread.

You started by saying that Wagner was the originator of jazz, then referred to Wagner as the orignator of Germanic jazz, and Jimi Hendrix of American jazz.

Since jazz originated 50 years before Hendrix' birth, the latter part of your assertion is difficult to comprehend.

Someone very rightly pointed out that the so-called "Tristan chord" (by the way, it was NEVER called that by Wagner himself) actually existed FAR before Wagner used it, making the former part of your expos