The Dark Knight

Nathan, most of your comments are completely irrelevant regarding the nature of this score.

How are my comments completely irrelevant to the nature of this score? All of my comments dealt with the various factors that would go into scoring this movie- or any movie. Have you scored any films? Have you produced sound design for a movie? I'm not attacking you- honestly asking. If you haven't- give it a try. I think you'll be surprised how much everything I stated earlier impacts your role on the crew. I know I learned alot by working on so much media.

I was complaining how the actual motifs used were very simple and not up to what I consider to be 'par' in film music. For such dynamic, interesting characters, Zimmer comes up with a two note theme?!?! This is mind-boggling to me, and it has nothing to do with frequency levels, development cycles or anything - I simply don't think a two note theme is suitable!

Side bar: Since both Howard and Zimmer are credited- we don't know who wrote what. At least I don't... yet. I'll look into it. However, I do think some people on here see "Zimmer" and then have already made up their minds. If there were other composers involved- would there be so much debate? Curious. :)

I know that is what is you were complaining about. The score didn't move you. Okay. Understood. However, you had (and have) no real part in the creative process or decisions when producing this film. I didn't either- I can just understand the film score process at a deeper level based on my past experiences composing for various projects in the TV-film and anime markets. With any project there is an approval process- and the powers that be approved and used the music in the film. The composers and the crew involved with the decision making felt it was appropriate. If they didn't, they wouldn't have used it. You need to ask them why they chose this music. You would probably get some really good insight.

Also consider that perhaps (key word is perhaps) the composers wanted to use a more simple theme to make a sharp contrast against such interesting and dynamic characters.

This is mind-boggling to me, and it has nothing to do with frequency levels, development cycles or anything - I simply don't think a two note theme is suitable!

You have no idea what went into the development cycle. You weren't there are a part of the production in any way. You have no idea how many redrafts (if any) the composers had to do. You have no knowledge of this. Frequency levels have to do with EVERY score because movies and sound design and films in them. At least a large majority do.

I commented on the output of Zimmer and Howard, nothing else. I don't really care what kind of work is put into it - there are plenty of film composers working under the same exact restrictions and I LOVE their music! I just don't like this score, and that's all. It's also a stylistic difference I have between Zimmer - I don't find any of his scores appealing, and I really don't have to defend that position.

Yes, you've made it quite clear you were concerned about the output of these two composers. I'm not asking you to defend him or his music. I'm not even defending him. I'm only stating that people should take a step back and consider all of the other elements that going into film audio- because they DO matter and make an impact. Some scores are a major hit and do well by themselves. Others don't. Fact of life.

Finally- you can't please everyone. Sorry you weren't pleased. For the record- I wasn't blown away by the score but didn't hate it either. My reaction to the film itself: I'm ready to die a happy man! It was awesome!

I don't really care about what restrictions film composers have to deal with! There are still amazing scores out there! Zimmer and Howard produced a piece of crap, that's all I'm saying. It doesn't matter what they went through to get the score out, because in my opinion their stylistic and musical choices were all wrong.

And no, I've never scored a film, and I don't plan to. But if I did, no matter the obstacles involved, I would still want to produce something of great worth. Which means interesting, suitable music. And all the other film composers out there are proof that it can be done. You simply cannot argue that obstacles that a film composer encounters diminishes his actual compositional and musical talent, but it seems you are defending Zimmer with this argument.

Actually I'm not. I'm "defending" all film composers. You felt it was a piece of crap- but you admit that you have no idea what it is like to score or work in audio for a film. You also have no prior experience doing so either. Because of that, you can't really say what does or doesn't go into the production. Because of that, your statement:

Nathan, most of your comments are completely irrelevant regarding the nature of this score.

doesn't carry much weight. It would be like me making all of these statements about ballet (right down to the moves, structure and form) when I know almost NOTHING about it! People wouldn't take me very seriously.

Side bar: Since both Howard and Zimmer are credited- we don't know who wrote what. At least I don't... yet. I'll look into it. However, I do think some people on here see "Zimmer" and then have already made up their minds. If there were other composers involved- would there be so much debate? Curious. :)

I think you'll be surprised how much everything I stated earlier impacts your role on the crew. I know I learned alot by working on so much media.

Zimmer is one of the most well-known, most saught after composers today (shockingly!). I think somebody with as much weight as him would not have to deal with as many creative restraints as yourself, a relative unknown (or at least in comparison to Zimmer!)

I'm only stating that people should take a step back and consider all of the other elements that going into film audio- because they DO matter and make an impact.

Yes we have and that is why Zimmer is so worrying. You don't seem to be considering the element that film composition used to be a highly reputable art! Many film composers of the past have produced immensely accomplished work, that both support and transcend the medium of film.

It's revealing that most of Zimmer's fans will defend his work by stating that his music doesnt actually have to be 'good'! Surely this is just a variation of sour grapes? 'You didn't think it was good? It wasn't even meant to be good!' It's just an incredibly transparent excuse.

I really care about the quality of film music, and therefore a critique of Zimmer's work is more than justified!

Surely the images themself are only a part of the film. Would it matter to you if the scenery wasn't any good? What about the acting; it's merely there in context of the film, but if it wasn't good it would negatively affect the film. If the music isn't good the film will not be as good as it could have been! All the elements of a film are important; without an accomplished score you will not have a fully accomplished film.

I've always found it interesting when a film uses two composers. The Last of the Mohicans did this- and while the score is great- it makes me wonder what went into making that decision to hire to composers. Could be a creative choice or perhaps a time conflict issue.

Zimmer is one of the most well-known, most saught after composers today (shockingly!). I think somebody with as much weight as him would not have to deal with as many creative restraints as yourself, a relative unknown (or at least in comparison to Zimmer!)

Yes we have and that is why Zimmer is so worrying. You don't seem to be considering the element that film composition used to be a highly reputable art! Many film composers of the past have produced immensely accomplished work, that both support and transcend the medium of film.

It's revealing that most of Zimmer's fans will defend his work by stating that his music doesnt actually have to be 'good'! Surely this is just a variation of sour grapes? 'You didn't think it was good? It wasn't even meant to be good!' It's just an incredibly transparent excuse.

I really care about the quality of film music, and therefore a critique of Zimmer's work is more than justified!

Surely the images themself are only a part of the film. Would it matter to you if the scenery wasn't any good? What about the acting; it's merely there in context of the film, but if it wasn't good it would negatively affect the film. If the music isn't good the film will not be as good as it could have been!

Good lord- I'm not saying film music doesn't have to be good. I would prefer film scores be excellent! I'm also not a Zimmer fan. Come over to my house and look at my iTunes, iPod and CD collection. You'll find no Zimmer soundtracks there. Seriously, come on over. I'll cook steaks. :)

I'm only saying that film music services something and I feel (correctly or incorrectly) that some people judge film scores the same way they would judge a symphony. My point is you can't- because they were created for (and often times experienced in) very different circumstances. Are there film scores out there that transcend the limits of film and are incredible on their own limit. I LOVE scores like this and wish we had more of them. So for the final time- I'm not saying film scores don't have to be good. I'm also not defending Zimmer. I'm only trying to get some to consider all of the elements related to making a film score. Why is this so hard to understand? I feel I've been very clear and quite repetitive on this.

And yes, I'm not as well-known as famous Hollywood composers.... but I'm working on it. ;)

Good lord- I'm not saying film music doesn't have to be good. I would prefer film scores be excellent! I'm also not a Zimmer fan. Come over to my house and look at my iTunes, iPod and CD collection. You'll find no Zimmer soundtracks there. Seriously, come on over. I'll cook steaks. :)

Ah I see! Your posts make a great deal more sense to me now! I suppose you are right. Take the sound effects for example; would many people put the sound of Batman's cloak rippling in the wind (best I could come up with) on the Ipod?

However... I still feel that film scoring in general has been degraded somewhat over the last decade. It's a (probably slightly old-fashioned/snobby) personal bias but an informed one. I did actually greatly admire Zimmer's work until I 'rediscovered' orchestral concert music and subsequently golden age film scores.

And yes, I'm not as well-known as famous Hollywood composers.... but I'm working on it. ;)

Best of luck! I'm also working on it but I've got a very long way to go! (Warning - shameless name dropping about to commence!) One of my blood relatives is actually a Hollywood director; Nick Moore (II)

I can probably use this to my advantage...!

However... I still feel that film scoring in general has been degraded somewhat over the last decade.

Completely agree- and I'd go as far as much of the "popular" music written today is severely degraded when compared to other times in history. I'm referring to pop tunes on the radio- like Ms. Spears and such. I don't even turn on the radio any more. Sure there are still incredible acts (like Bela Fleck and the Flecktones just to name one) but sadly the mass public don't ever hear of these artists.

Only us musicians that demand a little more of our music. There are still gems out there (in all genres of music) it is just getting harder and harder to find them.

Only us musicians that demand a little more of our music. There are still gems out there (in all genres of music) it is just getting harder and harder to find them.

I think that's true, but I would also say that even though there may have been some very talented rock musicians around in the 70s for example there were probably an unmitigated number of completely useless ones! We look back at history, and we usually only get to see the best artists of the day.

However despite what I just said, film scoring on the whole isn't quite what it used to be!

What it boils down to Nathan, since you don't seem to be getting my point at all, is I'm not willing to excuse mediocre film music and uninteresting themes for a major motion picture just because I don't know exactly what went into the creative process, or what kind of scraggy he had to go through to finish the score. I think it was a bad score, period. I don't understand your argument of 'you don't know what he went through when writing it'. I know I don't! But it doesn't matter at all when I'm commenting on the output, compared to the output of many, many other film composers, who still manage to write amazing scores!

I am not a person who judges film music in any way akin to the way I judge concert music. I know film music needs to serve the screen first and foremost. I just wish some film composers were actually skilled composers rather than just 'mood creators'.

Oh I get your point. I got your point a while back. You've been more than clear. You thought the score was crappy. That's your opinion and we've all heard you. I thought the score was okay. Not great- not terrible.

You seem to continuously misunderstand me and I've grown quite tired of explaining myself over the same points again and again, so I'm done.

I agree with oingo; it's just not good enough for a hollywood movie

Yes, because Hollywood movies set such a high standard of excellence.

I've always found it interesting when a film uses two composers. The Last of the Mohicans did this- and while the score is great- it makes me wonder what went into making that decision to hire to composers. Could be a creative choice or perhaps a time conflict issue.

I've heard that Howard did the softer "sentimental" music and Zimmer did the standard big-bang fare.

Anyways, I'd have to agree with Nathan. Zimmer's music obviously isn't that interesting to listen to outside of a film, but obviously those who *are* watching the film (aka: the target demographic) don't really give a scraggy about that. Elfman-esque theme music would only be distracting in a movie like The Dark Knight. Dark movies seldom have melodies ala "E.T" because, quite simply, "scary" melodies can come off as campy. Rhythmic grit fits an urban crime opera much better.

That said, my favorite film scores to listen to are the melodious and intricate soundscapes ala Korngold, so I (and Nathan) certainly *understand* oingo's point of view.

Oh I get your point. I got your point a while back. You've been more than clear. You thought the score was crappy. That's your opinion and we've all heard you. I thought the score was okay. Not great- not terrible.

You seem to continuously misunderstand me and I've grown quite tired of explaining myself over the same points again and again, so I'm done.

I haven't misunderstood you - I just don't care about all that. I am focusing on the end product, and that's it. But you're right - we seem to have reached a dead end in this conversation. But it was nice arguing with you! ;)

Hey, it's always nice to debate. :) Sorry you don't care about all of those factors but I can understand your concern and focus on the final project. In many ways, that is the only thing that concerns me as well when considering other forms of music.

My biggest offense was being called a Zimmer fan or that I'm defending him. I'm not on both accounts.

Yeah I thought the two-face thing was shoddy... but still a rockin' movie!

Two face was a depressing thing. i honestly thought more was going to happen but in the end it was a real disappointment. I did however enjoy the movie but it did have a lot of problems, it's primary problem being that the script was absolutely horrible. I also was not struck by the score but I don't think that the movie was hailed amazing because of it's score. I thought that for the movie it was well done but if I was to listen to music this is not at all one of my choices. I'd rather take Thomas Newman from Wall-E or something.

I thought they handled two face very well.

This is not a movie about comic books, and superheroes. This is a movie about what it is to be human, about the right and wrong and the incredibly ambiguous nature of those concepts. This isn't a movie about "Let's see how many Batman villains we can jam in here." This movie has depth and realism to it.

I guess I'm the only one who liked the joker motif? I didn't notice it the first time around, but the second and third times I noticed how it built suspense, and at the crucial moment, 'resolved'. It was especially well done at the beginning when the Joker shows his face.

I guess I'm the only one who liked the joker motif? I didn't notice it the first time around, but the second and third times I noticed how it built suspense, and at the crucial moment, 'resolved'. It was especially well done at the beginning when the Joker shows his face.

I liked it :).

It was creepy, minimal, and described the Joker's character well

I haven't misunderstood you - I just don't care about all that. I am focusing on the end product, and that's it. But you're right - we seem to have reached a dead end in this conversation. But it was nice arguing with you! ;)

Ok, because I just love dredging through old debates, I just thought I'd offer my opinion on this because, well, I can.

Just because your tastes are not satisfied does not mean the director's tastes were not satisfied. The director in most cases has the final word on the content of the score, not the composer. There's no telling what the director will say to the content you're complaining was lacking in the score. It's possible such content was there, but it detracted from the activity on the screen.

So, I'm not really convinced that you have a true grasp of this issue at all. It's not just that you don't care. You don't understand. The last thing these composers are going to do is sacrifice their paycheck for their art. This is the difference between the composers who post here and the professionals that are out there doing the real deal.

Side note of my own: Ever considered why the quality of film and popular music tends to fall by the wayside more and more by your standards? I once read that Hans Zimmer never studied music a day in his life, at least not as a "classically trained" composer. And we have to wonder why he is so sought after when he is so "uneducated" from the perspective of a more educated musician.

I see it as disgraceful and hypocritical to pass such judgment on the works of popular composers when most academics will argue how unimportant most works of popular culture really are. Not only do you degrade the work of accomplished professionals, you hold them to some "standard of excellence" as though they should compose in light of your beliefs and opinions about music. Then you gripe and complain when people compliment such work as work of quality to them, further degrading the judgment of reasonably educated people (not necessarily educated in music, mind you).

Not until the 20th Century have any works of considerably "academic levels" catered only to the whims of the music elite. The popular culture of reasonably educated people enjoyed these works of past centuries, attending concerts, expressing their own opinions, and because of them, we still study these composers today (Beethoven, Mozart, etc.). So, I'll tip my hat off to Zimmer. I'll tell him, "Great work!" He's doing what he's supposed to be doing by connecting people to the film through his medium, music. And for us to pass judgment on that as though it's wrong, it's pathetic, or it could be better is just absurd. This is why you are poor and unknown and he is rich and successful. People value his work, whether you like it or not.

-End Rant

My brilliant two cents:

The music did serve it's purpose, but that does not necessarily make it good. I found that it was mainly just dramatic background music. The overarching themes of the movie really were just one or two chords, perhaps in a dramatic rhythm. I am not convinced by any of your comments that there really was anything great about the music, and of course that's not what most of you are trying to argue I don't think. From what I've learned about hollywood film scoring, there is a very good possibility that these two composers were given a film and like 3 weeks to compose the music. Time constraints, and of course the director's will (as someone here mentioned) may have restricted them from creating great music.

So ultimately, I do not blame the composers and I think that the music serves it's purpose, but I definitely wouldn't say it is a "great" score. This is based on the fact that there was nothing particularly "new" about the music, there were no recognizable melodies, and the music was also not coordinated with the action in any significant way, aside from maybe a crash when someone is spotted.

To follow up on what Anti already stated:

I've heard from several composers on here that they hate writing for film (or any other kind of media) and will never do it. That is fine. It really isn't for anyone. While writing a full work on your own is no small feat and should demand respect (if it is any good ;) ) there is something to be said about the composers that can work with a team and meet a collaborative goal. I have to do this daily and it takes a certain personality to be able to pull it off and be successful. Maybe I'm judging too strongly- but I feel some composers turn away from this career because they never want to have someone else control their art. They don't want to have to consider other people's opinions, agendas and goals. That is understandable, because it does make the job much harder. However, I applaud those composers that can solve this puzzle, working with teams and know how to take constructive feedback (from a director or project lead or other) and then make it work musically. Many younger composers I've met couldn't do this. They don't have the heart, mind or patience to do so. They can learn it however!

I learned early on to not take it personally. I've written plenty of music that worked perfectly on the first attempt and I've also written music that missed the mark. My director (or boss or crew member) informed me of how and why they felt it missed the mark and then I made revisions. Note: I don't simply take one person's opinion and then start redrafting. I test it on a wide range of folks involved in the project. If the majority feel I missed the mark- I go back and try again.

I'm getting a little long winded but my point is: these composers that work in films and video games have a goal to meet. If the music doesn't meet that goal- the project doesn't use it. Likewise, it takes a very talented and smart person to be able to work with crew members that often times SUCK at talking about music. :) They don't know the terms or the specifics but they can hear when the music doesn't fit the vision as well as it could. So to those composers that do not want this type of career, give some respect. I think some composers shy away from this challenge and also don't have the ability to take criticism from someone about their work- especially if it is a non-musician. However, these many of these people have valuable things to say many times and finally it is mostly non-musicians that buy symphony tickets and support some composers while leaving others to out to dry.

Finally a good director will trust his composer and a good composer will trust the director. John Williams had to convince Spielberg that the Jaws theme would work. As the story goes, Spielberg felt it was too simple but once it was in the film- it was magic! Strive for a relationship where the director can give you feedback but will also respect your specialty: music. Likewise, don't be so egotistic to think that everything you craft is God's gift to ears. Be understanding that you may miss the mark at times and focus and fixing it. If you can do this- oh yeah and write great music- then you can have a bright future as a composer for video games and films.

Excellent points Nathan. One of the main facets of being successful in Hollywood in any discipline is being able to work collaboratively and smoothly with other people. Taking and making constructive use of criticism is something that every composer needs to do, but film composers especially need to thrive on it because they never hear the end of it.

Finally a good director will trust his composer and a good composer will trust the director. John Williams had to convince Spielberg that the Jaws theme would work. As the story goes, Spielberg felt it was too simple but once it was in the film- it was magic!

If I'm not mistaken, Spielberg actually laughed in Williams' face when he first heard the theme. Williams had to do a lot of diplomatic pushing for Spielberg to allow the theme to go forward.

If I'm not mistaken, Spielberg actually laughed in Williams' face when he first heard the theme. Williams had to do a lot of diplomatic pushing for Spielberg to allow the theme to go forward.

of course, we should also know that the 2-note motif that OPENS the Jaws theme is NOT the entire theme, is it. There's also the rising fanfare, and the "watery" arpeggiated string motif. So in other words, Williams did far more than just "compose" a 2-note theme and say "voila". He composed a succession of motifs which interlick and end up being the foundation for considerably more complex musical development through-out the film.

As for not wanting to write for film, that's like asking an architect who only works on commercial high-rise buildings why not design single-dwelling units. It's a choice. Period.

The fact that anyone here might profess a dislike for writing for film has nothing to do with the quality or lack there-of of a score for a film. I expect the same amount of work, and originality, to go into a filmscore as I do into a symphony. If a composer doesn't meet my expectations, then too bad, my opinion of him drops.

At this time, I haven't had the opportunity to see the film in question, nor hear its soundtrack, so I honestly can't say anything, but will certainly be keeping an open mind.

I remember not being particularly impressed with the score to the first "new" Batman film. It must have been functional, since it didn't annoy me in any way. However, it didn't stick out in a memorable way either.

I remember not being particularly impressed with the score to the first "new" Batman film. It must have been functional, since it didn't annoy me in any way. However, it didn't stick out in a memorable way either.

I believe during an interview, Hans Zimmer stated that unlike all his other soundtracks, he wanted create something that people can't hum to.

of course, we should also know that the 2-note motif that OPENS the Jaws theme is NOT the entire theme, is it. There's also the rising fanfare, and the "watery" arpeggiated string motif. So in other words, Williams did far more than just "compose" a 2-note theme and say "voila". He composed a succession of motifs which interlick and end up being the foundation for considerably more complex musical development through-out the film.

Agreed. My point was even the 2-note intro took some convincing for Spielberg. Never meant to imply the entire soundtrack was only that. I have the soundtrack on CD and it is excellent.

As for not wanting to write for film, that's like asking an architect who only works on commercial high-rise buildings why not design single-dwelling units. It's a choice. Period.

Again, agreed. This is why I said it isn't for everyone and I completely recognize some choose this career while others do not. I do, however, find it somewhat curious when some composers opt to be highly critical of film composers when they themselves never have or never plan to write film scores. I'm not trying to point figures here- I just find it interesting. It would be like me being highly vocal about ballets when I have no prior experience writing for them.