"The Island" - From Crysis: Lost World Returns

Hi everyone!

I know I have a separate thread for this project, but this is a longer piece than most of the fragments that go in there so I decided that it deserves its own thread.

Essentially, the project has nothing to do with the plot of Crysis or Jurassic Park, and is all about an island that gets discovered with some very interesting characteristics, not the least of which is the presence of living dinosaurs. There's a whole lot to the story and the island, but it's not worth getting into for the purposes of introducing this piece.

What I've written here is a piece that's meant to go with the opening cinematic for the game, or a similar sequence where the island itself is discovered and explored by the team. The beginning is dark and foreboding; it foreshadows later conflicts and terrors that remain un-encountered at the point in the game where this piece would show up. There's also a bold statement of the main theme partway through it, and a number of hints at other major thematic material from the soundtrack.

There's a lot of weird but deliberate percussion in here, as well as some murky harmonies in the brass to help create the mood I was looking for. Hopefully my sonic imagery is effective. Take a listen and let me know:

The Island

Thanks, and I look forward to your thoughts! :)

Incredible, buddy! You're always so thorough with your work. :)

Great percussion, as always. I enjoyed the rhythm at 1:59, very catchy.

Im not too sure about the solo clarinet beginning at 3:32. This part is kind of flat, in my opinion. Maybe if you were to play around with the dynamics it might help. In fact, I felt the entire piece itself was lacking in dynamic changes in the non-percussive instruments. For example I felt at 1:59 the whole orchestra should have swelled and not just the percussion section. Bring those horns to the front man! :P Again at 2:26, perhaps the strings, I feel, should be more noticable than they currently are.

I was really hoping that the little part at the end (starting at 4:14) had developed more. Haha. Maybe in another piece... :)

Heya Tol!

Thanks again for your comprehensive comments. :) I'll see what I can do to address them.

I'm glad you enjoyed the percussion, since I put a lot of work into it, it's very deliberately sequenced. As for that clarinet part at 3:32, it's funny you should say it lacks dynamic change since the entire solo oscillates from one extreme to the other of the mod wheel's range, with it set to control volume and expression. On the other hand, I do agree that it's a bit hollow there all on its own, especially after the rest of the piece's fairly thick-textured sound.

As for that section at 1:59, you're right. I actually have the horns doing a very dramatic swell to flutter-tongue playing even, but I made a mistake with my mixing so they're not really apparent, I'll have to go back and fix that - thanks for pointing it out! :)

I can also boost those strings while I'm at it, though I deliberately had them fairly quiet so they wouldn't clash with the trumpet part soaring around over them...I'll try it again and see what I can do to balance them.

Again, I'm not sure I agree too much with you in terms of the dynamic range of the piece, considering the horns, the strings (especially the sul ponticello tremolo violin parts) and the bass clarinet, as I mentioned, all explore their full dynamic range throughout the piece. I think the problem is that you can't really tell because the percussion is dominant in the mix. I could turn it down, but it's basically the key to the feel I was going for, so I'm not sure what I can do to make the dynamic variety more evident.

Any thoughts on where you would have liked to see that little ending phrase go? I can definitely do things with it in other pieces, but I hadn't really considered it until you mentioned it just now, so let me know if you had specific ideas or if it was just a general "Hey, you should develop that more" kind of thing.

Anyhow, I hope that covers your comments, I'll go back and put in those edits I mentioned as per your suggestions.

Thanks very much for listening! :)

Marius,

Great work, as usual. I enjoyed the main theme, but moreso the surrounding, uneasy music, which was more distinctive.

I think maybe the percussion was a little too heavy in the middle -- it in itself is great, but there's too much or it's too loud in the mix. In your case you don't need lots of loud percussion to cover up a lack of musicality, as in the case of someone we know. Your music is solid; let it be heard!

Very professional job on the sequencing.

The last chord / bar I think could be extended to maybe twice its length, and maybe have a timpani roll with a swell, and then have everything die off. I think it just ends slightly too soon.

Great job!

Hahaha, oh Daniel. I specifically mixed down the percussion a bit to avoid getting that comment from you! :P Alas, not enough. I think I just like my whack-y instruments too much...must re-mix and shut them up a bit.

I'm very happy that you noticed the precise sequencing and that you liked the murkier parts of the track, they actually took longer to produce. I think I agree with you about the ending, although I might not literally double its length...I'll go back and check it out, see how it sounds a bit longer and with a roll, and I'll post the re-done version including the edits suggested by you and Tol.

Thanks for the response, as always! :happy:

Okay folks, how's this for quick response time?

I've worked in the edits suggested by Tol and by Daniel, and I've done some more minor edits that you may or may not notice. See what you think of it now! :)

The Island - Take Two

H Marius...

I don't post much in listening forums anymore. I simply don't have the time. But with your piece I had to make an exception!

I like what you've done here, but I'm here to be picky and not "I like it WOW". good thing that some people have already commented on the track already! :)

So here are my thoughts...

The percussion in the beginning are from a different library than Gold? Cause they sound to me to be a little out of place (reverb wise).

Percussion loudness at this point is fine by me and my ears...

On the contrary the strings in the very beginning, simply start off too loud I think. I do understand you want a crescendo, but not sure, since they start rather loud. Maybe try a little audio fade in at start? Or crossfading 2 different velocity layers (audio again)?

Clarinet at 3:32 seems a little out of place, since it falls completely empty! There's nothing and I would suggest orchestrating it a little. Maybe doubling a few notes here and there, maybe creating some other tricks on the back. Do something, because right now it seems a little out of place, rather empty and the midi is not really interesting (too square).

Mixing after 0:50 falls very well into place imho.

1:25 the melody is great, but it is missing some development in orchestration. You use the brass only, what about adding the strings (you do add them later on but with 'stabs' and so on), the trumpet seems a little poor choice on 2:05, and I would really hope to hear some woods in there. It would really make the piece shine in that place and give that more "Williams" vibe maybe. Create the various variations needed to make it look a shine great!

Production is great, mixing is great as well i find (except the tremolo strings in the beginning).

Percussion are great and fit very well (if it is a different library, watch for the reverb).

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Orchestration it seems a little lacking I'm afraid, and this IS an orchestral piece after all.

I know you can read score. Have Sonar (you're a Sonar user, right?) create a small score and see for yourself, that your orchestration is based on doubling mostly, lots of empty spaces, etc, which seems a pity for such a musical talent of yours, a musical piece of music that's worth a lot, and the time you've put into it.

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Not to sound too harsh, but I've been listening to this for 15 minutes now (which should be 4 1/2 times I think). It's very nice and very very full to what it is and you've used the samples very expressively most of the time! :)

Well done and thanks for being around and showing us your great music! Sharing with us what you do! :)

Awesome, Nik! Thanks so much for the in-depth look!

I'm curious to know which version you listened to, as I actually turned down the tremolos at the beginning for the second version because I thought they were a bit too loud coming in as well. Maybe they still are, I'll go over it again.

The percussion is indeed different - it's mostly StormDrum and I didn't add any extra verb to those instruments, so maybe I should although most of EW's samples play very nicely with each other in mixes without too much work.

For the second version of the track, I've popped the tremolo violins back up top over the bass clarinet solo and tossed in some subtle cymbal effects just to give the clarinet some company, but if it's still too thin I'll think about bringing in the rest of the string section too, with some subtle background textures.

In terms of the orchestration, I recognize that it's not very thickly orchestrated, but some of that is because I have to try and emulate the sound of the original Crysis soundtrack and other stylistically similar ones like Lost and so on. Those ones are inherently thin, so as much as I might like to go a bit more John Williams-y on the stuff for this project, I technically shouldn't.

I actually recently switched over to Logic with my new studio setup, having been a Sonar boy for a while, and I'm still getting used to all the neat features and tools, but I know what you mean about the scoring being too thin - like I said though, it's at least partially the result of production demands for this project.

In any event, I've always got lots to learn from your comments, so I really appreciate you taking the time to provide a comprehensive critique - even if I don't end up making more edits to this piece (already submitted to project director, who loved it), I will certainly keep your thoughts in mind for future tracks!

Thanks a bunch for listening, Nikolas, and I'm glad to hear you enjoyed it! :happy:

By all means Marius.

No need for further edits, didn't expect so. I mean, not everything I post here or elsewhere gets edited, on the contrary! :)

I listened to the 2nd version (2-3 posts above this one). I honestly didn't hear anything with the Cl. solo, so not sure there bud. Will have a relisten after I come back from shopping (meat, milk, etc, don't expect new samples).

The perc indeed might need a tiny bit pushing towards the back, just a little bit. Especially the higher pitched stuff (the tenor drum, or snare drum with snares off, whatever this is).

I'm not aware of the Crysis tracks, so if there is an effort towards that end, I have to say I'm sorry that I didn't know, and that maybe you are right... I'm judging from a purely compositions/analytical point of view!

Logic huh? I should've known that you are in Mac now! Damn me and my short mind (and long arms actually, but this is another story! :D)

Keep us posted (as I know you will), about this project and best of luck!

No, I'm going to have to say the mixing (or in this case the lack of mixing) is really not having a good effect on your resulting sound.

Because you're using EW, and a lot of EW, you may think you can get away with just adjusting levels and adding some light verb to SD.

Not so.

Not everything is Clarinets and Trumpets.

At the bottom half of the second minute you slowly introduce some kind of brass choir with a solo trumpet amidst some chord-work. The problem here is you waste an opportunity to provide us with any substantial orchestrational ideas to emphasize the shape and strength of your main theme.

You write better than you orchestrate, and that's really problematic.

It's okay to start out with a lonely trumpet in the beginning, but at 2:00 you have some kind of shift that really demands an orchestrational shift as well. Again, at 2:25 as well, you have a major shift and an attempt to be bold but instead it's all limp and lame because there isn't any orchestrational power behind the statement. It keeps it far less than bold.

The incedental parts are tedious, mostly because there isn't any kind of orchestral diversity but also because the solo clarinet just... meanders.

Mixing-wise, man, there is a lot to do here. First of all, place your instruments, place them on the virtual stage. There is distance involved, that should be reflected in verb and low-pass filters.

I think you have your BOMBO player sitting on top of your second chair violin.

When you start treating this like an actual orchestra, you'll start hearing one.

Woohoo! More in-depth critique! :w00t:

I was actually considering doing some serious placing work on this track, but the whole thing came together in one afternoon (and then a bit the next day for some edits) so I didn't really spend too much time on it. You're right though, and I think my second chair violinist might be getting a bit uncomfortable with a set of earthquake taikos on his head, so I'm going to try doing some more precise placing and see how I make out.

In terms of the orchestration, I CAN thicken it like hell and do plenty with it, but the problem is that it would contradict the kind of sound I'm looking to get here, in trying to emulate the thin and hollow-ish orchestrations of the soundtracks I'm working from as inspiration. On the other hand, I could just work on keeping the same tone even with a more elaborate orchestration.

To be honest though, I put waaaaaay less precise planning into this piece than perhaps I should have; I was more interested in just getting the idea out of my head and into a solid form.

Anyhow, I really appreciate the comments dannthr, and I'll be going back to it eventually to try and sort out the mixing quibbles, if not the orchestrational ones for this piece. If I do so and manage to do a half-decent job of it, I'll post the update.

Thanks again for the extremely helpful review! :happy:

The thing is, you can give people a hollow sense and mood without sacrificing orchestral diversity. I'm not telling you to be lush, but I am asking you to consider an arrangement that would more be more effective.

For an example of hollow orchestration, try taking a contrabassoon and a contrabass clarinet and tutti it with a flute and/or piccolo. This will create a large hollow space in the actual frequencies, literally hollow, and it'll have a somber/hollow mood, but the texture will be full and substantial.

You're quite right, dannthr...I'm going to have to experiment with more substantial orchestration to see how I can balance things out. You've given me plenty to work on, so hopefully I can make use of it all! :)

Any thoughts on where you would have liked to see that little ending phrase go? I can definitely do things with it in other pieces, but I hadn't really considered it until you mentioned it just now, so let me know if you had specific ideas or if it was just a general "Hey, you should develop that more" kind of thing.

It was more the general comment that you should consider developing it at some point in another piece.

I really like what you've accomplished by toying with the mixing. Excellent piece. I miss the percussion a bit though, haha. :P

Anyway, I have to agree with the others that it's still missing the orchestral "thickness" that one would expect from a piece like this. But at the same time, you've mentioned that you wanted it thin, so...

I do believe that if you have the time, you should reassess your orchestration. You may want to consider some of the suggestions that other people have made. :)

Good luck!

As usual, I have enjoyed listening to many of your works you've presented for the videogame projects you've been involved with. At the same time I had always thought that you were a gifted young composer who often times seemed to be cliche or almost run on automatic (thematically and harmonically). Therefore, your work although great to listen to seemed to lack from what could truly be.

In this case, I feel that your approach was not as "automatic" or cliched :)

The opening was very effective and the use of the violin tremelo in the upper register was a nice touch. I'm assuming that its a Bass Clarinet in the opening?

Although videogame music is not know for the development of ideas in the classical sense I feel that with your ability and style it would do a wonderful push for videogames and the whole cerebral experience. For example after your majestic theme you return to a more foreboding music. I feel that you could easily use your opening material as well as your majestic theme in a developed foreboding manner (not overly done of course) to create an even greater work. :)

Anyway, I enjoyed listening. Great work.

Thanks for the clarification, Tol, as I said, I'll keep your suggestions in mind as I continue to work on this project.

Majesty, I'm happy that you enjoyed the piece and I'm very glad you pointed out some stylistic flaws with my work in general. I'm still growing, of course, and it's always good for me to get as much negative criticism as possible so that I can continue to shape and expand my music without losing sight of what it's for.

In this case, I can't deviate too much from the cliches simply because of the demands of the project; however, I am doing my best to create my own clear voice for the pieces and hopefully tread enough new ground that it doesn't feel like it's all been done before. Again, I'm still learning and progressing though, so if I'm not there yet then this is just another step on my way to that point in my musical career.

To answer your question, that was a bass clarinet in the beginning and the end, and I've come to think that I really like the solo there and that it might be able to work properly if I have it recorded live as opposed to trying to reproduce what I'm looking for purely through sample libraries. Thankfully, my girlfriend plays about 12 different instruments, best of which is the bass clarinet, so I think I might get her to perform the solo and if that will help.

While I agree that the work could be developed along more Classical guidelines (and I appreciate the kind words about my ability!) I'm not so sure that such predictable frameworks are appropriate for the moods and progressions offered by video games in general, not necessarily this project. They can be incorporated, for sure, but I would hesitate to agree with you on the point that they should be applied generally, if that's what you meant to imply.

In terms of my orchestration and such, I have already begun to thicken this particular piece and (with dannthr's suggestions) re-mix it in a more realistic manner. Hopefully, with some more time to work on it, and perhaps the chance to get that solo recorded live, I'll be able to put together a final version of this track that really conveys what I intend but in a more musically respectable way.

Anyway, thanks again for your helpful comments, I will keep doing my best to apply them! :happy:

Thanks for the clarification, Tol, as I said, I'll keep your suggestions in mind as I continue to work on this project.

Majesty, I'm happy that you enjoyed the piece and I'm very glad you pointed out some stylistic flaws with my work in general. I'm still growing, of course, and it's always good for me to get as much negative criticism as possible so that I can continue to shape and expand my music without losing sight of what it's for.

In this case, I can't deviate too much from the cliches simply because of the demands of the project; however, I am doing my best to create my own clear voice for the pieces and hopefully tread enough new ground that it doesn't feel like it's all been done before. Again, I'm still learning and progressing though, so if I'm not there yet then this is just another step on my way to that point in my musical career.

To answer your question, that was a bass clarinet in the beginning and the end, and I've come to think that I really like the solo there and that it might be able to work properly if I have it recorded live as opposed to trying to reproduce what I'm looking for purely through sample libraries. Thankfully, my girlfriend plays about 12 different instruments, best of which is the bass clarinet, so I think I might get her to perform the solo and if that will help.

While I agree that the work could be developed along more Classical guidelines (and I appreciate the kind words about my ability!) I'm not so sure that such predictable frameworks are appropriate for the moods and progressions offered by video games in general, not necessarily this project. They can be incorporated, for sure, but I would hesitate to agree with you on the point that they should be applied generally, if that's what you meant to imply.

In terms of my orchestration and such, I have already begun to thicken this particular piece and (with dannthr's suggestions) re-mix it in a more realistic manner. Hopefully, with some more time to work on it, and perhaps the chance to get that solo recorded live, I'll be able to put together a final version of this track that really conveys what I intend but in a more musically respectable way.

Anyway, thanks again for your helpful comments, I will keep doing my best to apply them! :happy:

Yes, I do know that you are still growing and I am aware that development won't always lend itself to videogames and I have no doubt that you will succeed in developing a great personal style:). I just had to voice it to you because you seem to have a gift for the area and I think in many ways videogames could benefit. When I say development I'm not only speaking about "sections of development" but in a way treating the video game as a opera where themes and ideas get a chance to be developed as the story progresses and develops while of course giving the player what they like to hear in some form :).

I asked about the Bass Clarinet because I just love the instrument to death:D and I just wanted to make sure so that I could comment on its nice use in the opening.

Ah, okay. Well you'll be happy to know then that there's a great deal of melodic material in this project's soundtrack, even though it may not be evident from the fragments I've posted. I'm definitely doing my best to develop them fairly consistently throughout and actually now I'm dealing with the challenge of presenting them in the demo we're working towards without giving away too many or too much of their potential grandeur. It's a great exercise and a lot of fun! :)

I totally understand your love for the bass clarinet. I adore its tone and I always do my best to use it when I can, if appropriate.

Hello everyone!

Well, I've just spent most of the evening tweaking, modifying, etc. and have come up with a new version of this track. I think it sounds noticeably better as I've tried to incorporate most of the commentary without spoiling my initial vision for the track or losing sight of its place. Still a sampled bass clarinet for now, by the way, in case you were hoping for a live one. :P

The Island - Take Three

Let me know how it's progressed!

I really enjoyed this version even more. There was a greater sense of cohesion and developed ideas along with the distinguished themes and sections that still come across as suitable for videogame music :).

It was great to hear the return of the opening material after the majestic moment along with the Bass Clarinet ;)...and then again the brass references the majestic theme....very nice. I know you really want the live Bass Clarinet recording but it does sound good as is. But, I know I will probably die once I hear the change :w00t:

I really enjoyed this new version, it feels more cohesive and mature.

One thing I think you'll find really important is having your stereo modeling/placement come before your reverb in your production chain.

This is because in a real hall situation, the instruments will sit inside the hall, and their stereo placement will have an effect on the reverb reflections around the hall. This means that instruments on the right side of the hall will have sound waves that travel across the hall and reflect off the left side of the hall as well. The spatial timing of these reverberations is going to make or break how convincing your track is in the virtual world.

At the moment, you have, I believe, the reverb called before your stereo panning. Try reversing these on your production chain, I think you'll be pleased with the results.

In general, be wary of speakers that add space or colouring to your monitoring.

The writing is much more compelling in this version, keep up the good work.

Hey M!

Great piece. I love the balance of tension and adventure you have in there. The one thing I myself would point out would be the trumpet thats prominent around the 2:00 mark. It sounded a little thin to me and I didn't like it too much. Otherwise - sterling work mate.

Thanks very much for the responses, everyone!

Majesty, cooper, I'm happy that this version sounded more coherent to you. I was hoping that my tweaks would help with that so it's good to hear that they did.

Dan, I'll take another look but I'm fairly certain I DID do things the way you said, in that order...maybe I'm just mistaken.

Fox! Why the trumpets? Whyyyyy?! :P Sorry, I just spent a lot of time specifically working on avoiding having them sound thin in this third version of the track. I suppose if I go back yet again, I will tweak them some more in that spot to see what I can do to fatten them up a bit. Glad you enjoyed it though — and thank you for saying "sterling"...that word is underused and I haven't seen it in real life in ages.

I appreciate all the reponses! :happy:

Wow! Awesome stuff... Bits remind of me of Brian Tyler's "Rambo" material. The percussion is amazing, and the melodies are extremely enticing.

Great work!