16th Century Counterpoint - 2 voices - 2nd species

Very good job. You avoided parallel 8ths and 5ths and created a musical bass line.

Only one problem - dissonances cannot be introduced by a leap nor quitted by a leap and/or different direction. A good example is what you did CORRECTLY is in m 1 - the 9th is introduced with stepwise motion (that is closest note that follows and that is in the scale) and continues in stepwise motion the same direction to form a consonance - a maj 6th - on beat one of measure 2. See mm 5 and 8 and see how you introduce the tritones - check if they were introduced with stepwise motion in the same direction and were quitted the same way, as you did in mm1 to first beat of mm 2.

Check the measures and correct the errors you detect. Very good work. I suggest you place the cantus firmus in the bass and write the counterpoint above it for another exercise.

well, here is the first exercise...

This stuff is so foreign to me. Hopefully I did this correctly.

Anyway.. here is..:)

EDIT - This attachment is now an updated Version 1 -

2nd species.pdf

DC -

I ask you produce two versions of what you have:

1) Version 1 - This will sound very strange but as a piece of music this is quite beautiful - I'd only change the parallel octaves going from mm 6 to 7. Although you break many other rules of 16th century style polyphony the way you break them is very consistent so that the counterpoint works well - what I like is how expressive it is - the leaps to 4ths and quitting them with smaller leaps or reverse direction is done well.

2) Version 2 - This will be the corrected one according to 16th century rules. The rules you missed were buried a few posts back, here are the two you consistently break:

A) Dissonances are approached in stepwise motion and are quitted in the same direction with stepwise motion. Example - say in measure three you start on C on beat one in the upper voice. To have a dissonance on beat 3 and FOLLOW THE RULES - you MUST go to D (one step up from C) to form a P4th and then contine to E to form a major 6th. Check your exercise for times you broke this rule and correct it.

B) You cannot skip to a dissonance, so the leap to D on beat 3 of measure 2 is forbidden. Find other instances of this error and correct it

You will have quite a few corrections to make for the second version. But keep the first version with the 1 correction I suggest- it is a great framework or main idea for a larger piece of music.

Bravo for your musical intuition!

hmmm... okay.

That changes things a little bit. I think I caught all of the mistakes...

In my previous post I upload a revised "First Version"

In this one, I have both a fixed (hopefully) "2nd Version" and I decided to try my hand at making a new base line.

- EDIT -

Okay, I think I found the error. (Beat 1 of measure 8?) I changed measure 7 and 8...

I think the reason the parallel octave is still there is becuase I don't have a complete understanding of what a parallel octave (or fifth) really is. I have just been going off of what the two words mean.

2nd speciesV2.pdf

2nd speciesNB.pdf

Version 2 - Perfect!

Version with New bass - Almost perfect look carefully at the 1st beat of every measure - NO dissonant intervals on the strong beat (beat one). YOu did this once otherwise it is fine. Find the error in your bassline and correct.

VErsion 1 - Parrallel octaves still exist from beat 3 of measure 6 to beat 1 of measure 7. the 9th you form e - f moves in similar motion to the octave thereby creating hidden parrallel octaves. But leave it alone it sounds good hearing it again.

Any chance for a third species thread coming soon? I'm working on these exercises myself, but it's great to have someone to correct potential mistakes for once.

Here's mine. I don't really like the beginning of the soprano line. I also noticed a hidden 5th and a parallel 5th (last measure), but I just left it as it is...

Edit: The figure in measure five is called a cambiata for those who don't know.

Fleuri.pdf

Fleuri.mid

It looks good. Your handling of suspensions in the upper voices is very good! Only significant critique is the intervallic relations between the outer voices go too often back and forth between P5 and P8. Something to keep in mind when writing more exercises (and trust me I know how hard it is in 4 voices mixed species to avoid this - I still struggle with this).

Now, HIDDEN 5ths and octaves are allowed in between outer voices or an outer voioce and inner voice. Therefore the parallel fifths from beat 3 btw sop and bass to the final chord is illegal. This can be remedied by revising the measure 8 so that it leads easily to a G # in the last measure. The alto would go to B in the last measure.

Another instance of the same problem is measure 5 to 6 between tenor and bass.

Note to hide P5s and P8s you would use an imperfect consonance (if between inner voices imperfect consonances and P4 and tritones) to a fifth or octave in similar motion. You did do this well in measure 2 to 3 tenor and bass - very nice concealed octaves. Measure 7 - 8 tenor and bass - maj 6th to P5 similar motion - very good hidden fifths. Also in measure 8 soprano and tenor - nice concealed octave - note how the soprano leaps to the C but the tenor moves stepwise. This is the way to conceal octaves and 5ths if one voice is leaping. It works even better if the outer voicve moves stepwise while the inner voice skips.

On the use of hidden 5ths and octaves, this is where 16th century polyphony becomes quite difficult - our modern ears aren't accustomed to this nuance of dissonance. And often Renaissance sought voice crossing as well as hidden fifths to avoid having direct parallel motion of octaves and fifths

This discussion raises one of the drawbacks of doing counterpoint at the piano - even if voice crossing or hidden fifths/octaves are used to avoid direct parallel 5ths and octaves , these intervals will either look and/or sound consecutive no matter if treated correctly or not. This is why Jeppesen astutely titles his book The Art of 16th Century VOCAL Polyphony.

As for a thread on 3rd species 2 voice counterpoint -- please be patient. I have a few small projects to complete (both musical and non musical) and this species is much more involved. It may require two or three threads with examples to explain to newcomers.

Hello, composerorganist!

I never really paid much attention to parallel and hidden 5ths/8ves and that's why I didn't really bother correcting them even if they were so bluntly there (I only had to do it to get my counterpoint diploma, lol. Believe me, checking for mistakes in a double choir exercise is really time consuming).

As far as I know, hidden fifths and octaves when it comes to outer voices are only permitted when the soprano is moving stepwise (the opposite is not correct).

Alexandros

Alexander good call in your last sentence but it requires clarification.

You are partially correct and I stand corrected --- Hidden fifths are fine as long as the UPPER voice moves stepwise. Therefore mm 8 btw soprano and tenor is incorrect as the soprano skips a third. But if you were to use hidden 5ths between bass and alto the alto line must move stepwise to be correct. Therefore it is not necessarily the soprano line that must move conjunctly.

Now, hidden octaves between outer voices in LESS than 4 parts should be used with GREAT care and only if absolutely necessary according to Jeppesen.

Again thanks Alex, I had to doublecheck my counterpoint text to recall the correct way.

I recently got Counterpoint, By Fux as well as Counterpoint in Composition By Salzer/Schachter.

I chose to do keys rather than modes seeing as that will be my primary focus for most composition.

Thanks CO. :)

Let me know if I did anything wrong or "badly"...

[ 300th Post!!!!!]

DC - overall you have some good sections of your cantus fermi - usually when large intervals are introduced gradually or if they are introduced rather rapidly you fill out the leap afterward. Example is E minor - the stepwise ascending thirds is very good and most of your descent is good but I would not go in the 2 nd measure b to g but b, a,g, a, and continue with what you have. It slows down the descent puts emphasis around the tone A thereby suggesting a cadential harmony that leads to e.

Also watch your leaps, the F major exampl has a leap of a 7th. This is where 16th and 18th century practice depart. In the 16th century polyphony this would be extremely rare to the point of being unstylistic. In 18th century with the advent of the "fantastic style" developed in the late 17th century instrumental music and even in a few of Monteverdi's late madrigals do we see this become more used. Even then it would be built up gradually.

But I'll look at them more. I suggest you sing through these and ... then listen to 16th century Masses for comparison. Your ears will offer a lot of help.

Sorry to keep muddying up your thread.. :)

So I wrote six more Fermi. I think these ones are a little better..

Let me know. :)

DC - Why don't you put these under a new thread? With Alexander's exercise and yours the thread is losing its focus.

Alexander good call in your last sentence but it requires clarification.

You are partially correct and I stand corrected --- Hidden fifths are fine as long as the UPPER voice moves stepwise. Therefore mm 8 btw soprano and tenor is incorrect as the soprano skips a third. But if you were to use hidden 5ths between bass and alto the alto line must move stepwise to be correct. Therefore it is not necessarily the soprano line that must move conjunctly.

Now, hidden octaves between outer voices in LESS than 4 parts should be used with GREAT care and only if absolutely necessary according to Jeppesen.

Again thanks Alex, I had to doublecheck my counterpoint text to recall the correct way.

Hidden 5ths and 8ves are allowed between an inner and an outer voice and between inner voices in a 4 part counterpoint. Thus hidden 5ths and 8ves between S and A or T, A and T or B and between T and B are not taken into consideration.

I also have Jeppesen's counterpoint and this is clearly stated.

Alexandros

To keep true to the thread's original purpose, here's mine:

Counterpoint 2 voices - 2 species.pdf

Hello, composerorganist!

As far as I know, hidden fifths and octaves when it comes to outer voices are only permitted when the soprano is moving stepwise (the opposite is not correct).

Alexandros

Alexandros - no offense, but your post above and this paragraph from your original post are a little contradictory. The root of the problem may be Jeppesen's text (or the translation) -

(Counterpoint - The Polyphonic Vocal Style of the Sixteenth Century, Knud Jeppessen, trans. Alfred Mann, p 176, page 203 (Dover edition))

page 176 -

"3. Concealed fifths or octaves are permitted between an outer voice and an inner voice or between inner voices (when there are more than 3 parts). Between outer voices, hidden fifths can be used with good effect, but in this case the upper part SHOULD MOVE in CONJUNCT MOTION. Hidden octaves between outer voices (at least in less than four parts) ought to be avoided. They MAY occur in cadences at the progression from the next to the last to the last measure: bnut otherwise they must be used with caution."

page 203 -

(Referring to 4 voice counterpoint) "Covered octaves are admissible, but they had best be used when the upper voice moves by step."

In sum I think my first response was most accurate - upper voice moving in conjunct motion is the best way to handle hidden octaves and fifths as well as concealed octaves but NOT mandatory.

Alexandros - thanks for the notes on your exercise. Ah, note that you have hidden octave from measure 1 to first beat of measure 2 as you moved from a P5 in similar motion to a P8. As you know hidden octaves in 2 voice counterpoint 2nd specie is forbidden.

Why did you mark those measures as not so good but acceptable?

I would have thought the movement TO the fifth from the PRIOR measure would be considered not that great but ok (eg G - E, maj 6th then g - b maj 3rd to F - C, P5 ) as you avoid hidden 5ths but M6 on a strong beat with both voices moving in the same direction to a P5 does not entirely alleviate the sound of hidden fifths - even if it is evaded. But to reiterate - the counterpoint is FINE.

It is not contradictory. I said "when it comes to outer voices", that is Soprano and Bass (I am always referring to 4 part counterpoint). In all other cases hidden 5ths and 8ves are permitted.

Alexandros - thanks for the notes on your exercise. Ah, not that you have hidden octave from measure 1 to first beat of measure 2 as you moved from a P5 in similar motion to a P8. As you know hidden octaves in 2 voice counterpoint 2nd specie is forbidden.

The soprano is moving by step so it isn't wrong.

The line of the soprano part in those marked measures isn't balanced. It would be best if the voice after the skip of third moved in the opposite direction, but the cantus firmus doesn't permit that as we would have then two consecutive 5ths on the first beat of each measure plus the voice would have to skip again for the next meaure in order to avoid the interval of the 4th which is forbidden.

Alexandros

Alexandros -

I see your point - per Jeppesen page 114 "The following procedure is not so good: (illustration of a skip of a third downward followed by downward conjunct motion of a step and then up conjunct motion)"

You are incorrect though - see page 112

"4. Hidden and parallel fifths and octaves are not permitted (2 voice counterpoint). It is therefore not permissible to approach a fifth or octave in similar motion"

This rule holds for 2 voice counterpoint. Note the rules allowing hidden fifths and octaves I referenced from page 176 of Jeppesen is given when 3 VOICE polyphony is introduced. Jeppesen specifies with 3 or more voice hidden fifths and octaves are allowed -- it is NOT allowed in 2 voice polyphony. Therefore mm 1 - 2of your exercise is incorrect.

I see your point - per Jeppesen page 114 "The following procedure is not so good: (illustration of a skip of a third downward followed by downward conjunct motion of a step and then up conjunct motion)"

Yes, Jeppesen makes a mention of it too. When I write 4 part counterpoint, I try not to have a line skip consecutively or too often. If I have to make two skips in a row they will definitely be in opposite directions and then optimally move stepwise, again in opposite direction .

You are right regarding the hidden octave. I checked some other sources, too and hidden 5ths and octaves are forbidden in 2 part counterpoint even if the upper voice moves stepwise.

However, as I said before in 4 part counterpoint hidden fifths and octaves are only forbidden in the two outer voices and only when the soprano skips, so in my 4 part realization of the cantus firmus the hidden 5th in mm. 8 between S and T is permissible. On the other hand, the parallel 5th on the same measure between S and B is clearly not.

Alexandros

I'm doing these for counterpoint classes. They annoy the hell out of me. Waste of time. I'm not saying I don't like counterpoint, but these rules are dumb.

I'm doing these for counterpoint classes. They annoy the hell out of me. Waste of time. I'm not saying I don't like counterpoint, but these rules are dumb.

In Greece, it is required to study counterpoint for two years before you can move on to fugue and another two years of fugue studies before you can study composition which usually lasts another 3 to 4 years (of course you also have to have studied harmony for two years before you can do counterpoint and have taken solfege and theory lessons for three years before you can study harmony :) ).

I found studying counterpoint very interesting, though I must say that had a lot to do with my love for early music. I think the key to not having so much difficulty with writing counterpoint, is to understand what is the proper way of individual voice movement. Of course, when you write counterpoint, you will always have to make adjustments in order to avoid mistakes, but this sometimes can also help you find a better counterpoint...

Alexandros

P.S I just completed a new renaissance dance. You can listen to it here, if you are interested.

Thanks Alexandros for that --- the point of counterpoint is to understand what makes a melodic line flow. And although you probably will not write 16th century style counterpoint, I have found in my "dissonant" counterpoint I use 16th century counterpoint to guide me in correcting any counterpoint or even harmonic movement that seems unintentionally stiff or square.