Modes

Just something I need to be cleared with.

I own a book and a chart that has modes, but this confused me as they are both in key C, yet differnet notes.

So in dorian mode, it starts off D in the C major - D,E,F,G,A,B,C. On the chart as it's also in key C, it has a flattened E and B. Why is this?

Just something I need to be cleared with.

I own a book and a chart that has modes, but this confused me as they are both in key C, yet differnet notes.

So in dorian mode, it starts off D in the C major - D,E,F,G,A,B,C. On the chart as it's also in key C, it has a flattened E and B. Why is this?

All seven modes can be used with any of the twelve chromatic notes.

So there exists C major,C minor, C dorian, C mixolydian...etc.

The Dorian mode is very similar to the minor scale,except that there is no flattened 6th.

So the key of C with a flattened E and B is C DORIAN.

The key of C with a F# would then be C LYDIAN.

I hope this helps a bit.

Yeah, D, E, F, G, A, B, C, D is D dorian, and C, D, Eb, F, G, A, Bb, C is C dorian.

Same order of intervals (T-S-T-T-T-S-T)

Just something I need to be cleared with.

I own a book and a chart that has modes, but this confused me as they are both in key C, yet differnet notes.

So in dorian mode, it starts off D in the C major - D,E,F,G,A,B,C. On the chart as it's also in key C, it has a flattened E and B. Why is this?

I think the book wants only to show the scales, without giving any prominence to the key.

A dorian mode that starts from C is in Bb major, a phrygian mode that start from C is in Ab major, etc.

Anyhow, I believe that this approach is more useful in guitar or el. bass studies, where positions, expecially for dummies, play a very important role.

Well this is the case where playing the piano or a keyboard instrument is most helpful since you can visualize really well what you are actually playing.

Any mode can begin on any one note, that's basically what you need it for, it would be rather dull to always use aeolian mode from A to convey sadness, not to mention the harmonic content...

Ohh, I understand now. Took me some time :P

But I always tend to have to write it down first so I find out the correct key used for that specific mode.

So if I want to know the F Dorian, I'd write the intervals first and start from there to know which scale to use, which is Eb. Correct? :blush:

What's an easier way to do this?

Correct, but I like to do it differently. If you don't just know them off the top of your head, like what Eb locrian is... and ect., you'll learn most of them over time just like your major in minor scales. Since I don't use them all that much, I use this degree method of finding them.

Ionian is on the first degree of the MAJOR scale.

Dorian is on the SECOND degree.

Phrygian is on the THIRD.

And they all go in order similar to that. So if I want say... F# phrygian, I know that F# is my third degree of the major scale, so I count down a major third, and I find that I'm supposed to use my D major scale, except that I'm going to be using F# as my starting point, or "tonic", instead of D. Another way you can do it is memorize that phrygian is a natural minor scale with a lowered second. So pick out your F# minor scale, then lower G# to G natural and you have your phrygian now.

Check out [[Category:Church modes]] and [[scales]] on the Wiki.

Makes alot of sense! Thanks for that. They're not that hard as I'd thought it'll be. I hear many people stay away from modes... which brings me to another question.

Once you know how modes work in a key, what's next? Does it get much harder in composing music with modes?

Composing with modes can be difficult, just in the fact that you don't really have a solid tonal center. A lot of the time you try to go to the original key. Example if you were planning on D dorian, and you ending up cadencing into a C major chord. Sometimes our ears are trained to hear that (thanks Bach!). So that can be difficult, especially in the beginning of composing in modes.

Another hard thing about some of the modes (dorian, phrygian, lydian, aeolian and locrian) is that they don't have a leading tone. You almost have to think differently about cadences, they get a bit more difficult. Ending songs kind of drops on the audience, depending on how you end it.

Ending phrases can be difficult too. Especially with phrygian and locrian in my opinion. Phrygian has a dimished v chord, which I've found to be awkward when ending songs and phrases. And locrian is especially difficult because it's i chord is a dimished i chord. In my locrian piece I ended up cheating by dropping the dimished 5 at the end.

I guess the moral of my story is...you just have to look at different things when you write in a mode. For starting with, I would say the dorian (this is the key that halo is in :) ), mixolydian, lydian, and aeolian modes would be the easiest to write for. Especially aeolian (equivalent to natural minor), people seem to understand that one pretty quick.

One more thing to keep in mind is that if you're talking about modes as they were used in early (medieval/renaissance) music, they actually are tied to specific fundemental notes. There's no such thing as C-Dorian in a Palestrina motet, at least not in notation. (I.e. it still could be sung[/] with an arbitrary fundamental frequency, but that's a different thing.)

So, in early music, Dorian actually is tied to D, Lydian to F, etc. Furthermore, many of the modes were actually almost always used with certain accidentals, meaning they have a -different- interval setup than how they are described today. F-Lydian, for example, was almost always used with a Bb, making it "identical" to our F-Major. (So the usage of "Lydian" in Beethoven's string quartet no. 15, which he meant to give an impression of "antiquity" is actually quite historically inaccurate. But you can't really blame him for that, since one didn't know that much about early music in Beethoven's time.)

Other modes also used certain accidentals very frequently (such as a raised leading tone in mixolydian, a lowered sixth in dorian, etc. - which actually brings many of them close to the major/minor system). And other modes, like Locrian, weren't used at all, but just were invented in theory to "complete the set".

(But of course it's still wrong to call modes "identical" to major/minor scales even in the cases where they consist of the same notes, since their usage also implied other things than a mere pitch set, such as starting/ending tones, reciting tones, etc.)

If you are writing it in the same style as the medieval/renaissance, than yeah, what I was saying is not the same. The main difference being that I write with chords. In the medieval era atleast, it was always unison lines, with occasionally two-part only using fifths and fourths.

I want to say I've read that Bb are one of the few common accidentals? I don't remember seeing many of the others, but I could be wrong. Mostly to avoid the tritone of B and F. Usually in the passages with traveling 5th, and they only like perfect intervals at that time. A major third is dissonant in this era, so obviously the tritone is pretty horrible.

Also, I think the leading tone would be raised at the ends of the piece. Like with the example Gardener gave, but I don't think they used it throughout the piece did they?

Modes aren't only used in the medieval/renaissance time though. Aren't they used in jazz too? They are also good to know for counterpoint exercises. And Debussy wrote in modes all the time. Modes were used outside of that time period.

Edit: I just noticed you said "as they were used in..." not they were only used in...sorry. Well hopefully this can bring up some more good stuff instead :)

Modes aren't only used in the medieval/renaissance time though.

Modes were used by EVERY composer until ~1900. Common practise music is also modal,since it uses Major and Minor,which are also two modes!

Is minor considered modal? I know Ionian is major, but it's never thought of as modal. I never talk about how I wrote a song in Ionian. And minor seems different than the modes. Mostly theoretically, but hey whatever. Major and Minor as names in themselves, are not modes however. Unless there is another set of modes I haven't learned about. I've only learned about the Greek modes and the Church modes.

Is minor considered modal? I know Ionian is major, but it's never thought of as modal....

Unless there is another set of modes I haven't learned about.

Minor can be modal - Aeolian = Natural Minor, yah? Modal (to me) is an approach, a technique, a state-of-mind...

Also, there are going to be dozens of modes you're unaware of...modes of the ascending-melodic-minor, modes of the harmonic-minor, etc... Learn some jazz theory...all you "legit" folks could do with knowing more jazz. ;)

Right, I actually mentioned earlier about the natural minor. But when I think of common practice period minor, that just doesn't seem like the same thing. This is really just a bunch of techniqualities, so I should just stop argueing.

On the other note, how do you determine the modes of the ascending-melodic-minor and modes of the harmonic minors? I wrote a song in which I was told it was in the Lydian of G melodic minor. The scale is D E F# G A Bb C D. I'm not sure exactly how that is found.

The scale is D E F# G A Bb C D. I'm not sure exactly how that is found.

The 4th mode of Ascending Melodic Minor is like lydian,but with a minor seventh. Just like the scale you mentioned. Thist mode is also called "lydian dominant" or "acoustic scale"

Wait, Lydian is a major scale with the 4th scale degree raised. The scale I mentioned is a D major with a lowered 6th and lowered 7th. If the scale were based around C, than what you mentioned is correct, but mine is based on D. The equivalant for that scale around C is C D E F G Ab Bb C, if that helps with letting me know what scale this is.

*clears the air*

...I wrote a song in which I was told it was in the Lydian of G melodic minor. The scale is D E F# G A Bb C D. I'm not sure exactly how that is found.

Your scale is from the G ascending melodic-minor, however, it's the 5th mode. Mixolydian-b6.

...

:whistling:

Cool thanks robin. So how do you determine that? Do I just need to memorize the fact that the 5th mode of an ascending melodic-minor is Mixolydian-b6? and the 4th mode of an ascending melodic-minor is lydian-b7? If so that's what I'll do, but it would be nice to just know a shortcut :)

Cool thanks robin. So how do you determine that?

Same as you figure out any other mode...

I do it by the parent-scale relationship.... so yes, familiarity with the parent melodic-minor scale is important, and understanding which alterations correspond with which scale/mode.

Modes Of Melodic Minor

Ok, wow, I was overcomplicating it my own mind. That really helped, thanks!