End Credits

I haven't posted in a while, what with personal stuff, work etc... It's been busy.

However, I did have time to turn my attention to do some writing, and this is what I came up with.

It's meant to be music to the end credits of a sci-fi war/military film where to opposing planets fight for the rights of a 3rd.

Composed/written in Sibelius 6, I am using EWQLSO (Eastwest Quantum Leap Symphonic Orchestra) and EWQLSC (Symphonic Choirs) as my virtual instruments, all mixed and rendered in Reaper DAW. Now, I am not a recording engineer nor a mixer, so forgive me for the mixing if it's not good.

I am yet to learn how to use Symphonic Choirs and make my choir sing (you can with SC, but it's complicated to set up and configure!). So, at the moment you get AHs and hopefully one day, the choir will sing what I have written.

I have sent this to a couple of people who think it sounds more like games music. Now, I have never really thought about writing for games, but why not... I am in two minds about the piece being games music, though.

Anyway, here is the MP3 link:

And here is the PDF link:

Wow, I'm simply amazed. It sounded like everything you said it would be. I've always wanted to be able to write brilliant end credit pieces, I think it's where the composer can have his way with what he thinks the movie should have been and make the music truly come alive. It would be great to hear them singing those words. I'm looking at buying that Package as well... I just wish they made things simpler for the composer who knows little about Sound engineering and all that. Very Good.

Wow, I'm simply amazed. It sounded like everything you said it would be. I've always wanted to be able to write brilliant end credit pieces, I think it's where the composer can have his way with what he thinks the movie should have been and make the music truly come alive. It would be great to hear them singing those words. I'm looking at buying that Package as well... I just wish they made things simpler for the composer who knows little about Sound engineering and all that. Very Good.

Thank you. You're too kind.

But I still have some learning to do. I think my weak area is the orchestration side of things. I am also not an expert on all orchestral instruments, but I hope to be very soon.

As for DAWs and sequencers, you are right, and I am hoping that those who know can help those who don't.

The other thing is, that I wrote something based on a non-existant film, so I feel it was merely an academic exercise. If I had something visual or a real project, things might have been different.

I intend to use my new samples such as Eastwest Symphonic Choirs, EW Storm Drum2 (SD2), and I am awating Eastwest Voices of Passion. So watch this space for some new styles of my writing, and watch me grow each time.

Btw, the Eastwest stuff is 2-4-1 at the moment, and well worth it. I bought 2 packages and got another 2 free!

I listened to those voices of passion, and I just about cried!!! They're beautiful.

Here's the thing... EWQLSO is a high quality very hard to understand VSTi.

it's really hard to use if you don't have like 32 midi channels.

The problem with this part is that although the EWQLSO is using the best recordings of live orchestra, your music sounds synthisized in almost every possible way. This means you were not using the instruments right and that's why you were told that this music fits games.

Try using VSTi's like Miroslav Orchestra or even simpler ones like EDIROL orchestra.

Other then that the composition sounds Great! :)

Very impressive; well done.

That was amazing! I loved every bit of it, from the pounding horns to the light and heavy strings, and the heavenly voices. Amazing job.

Maybe switch the melody from the strings once in a while though, to change it up a bit.

The composition itself sounds pretty good, but I would suggest if you are looking to create more realistic renderings that you start composing exclusively in your DAW. This way you can bypass the extra step of adding the detailed MIDI expression and volume input needed to fully make use of a quality sample library. Not to mention the use of multiple articulations per instrument. Using multiple articulations per instrument is absolutely necessary to creating a more realistic sound, (among other things). Trying to use a Sus patch to represent staccatos is one of the most obvious examples your piece suffers from. EWQL can sound fantastic when it's used in conjunction with detailed MIDI editing. None of this stuff is really obvious to the inexperienced user, but once you manage to wrap your head around how to get the most out of the libraries you use, it'll become very easy to get a more realistic sound.

Now I know this all might sound a bit harsh, but you've definitely got some promise with this. I'm just doing my best to help you get to the next level that your piece needs, realism.

Here's the thing... EWQLSO is a high quality very hard to understand VSTi.

it's really hard to use if you don't have like 32 midi channels.

The problem with this part is that although the EWQLSO is using the best recordings of live orchestra, your music sounds synthisized in almost every possible way. This means you were not using the instruments right and that's why you were told that this music fits games.

Try using VSTi's like Miroslav Orchestra or even simpler ones like EDIROL orchestra.

In the grand scheme of things EWQLSO is one of the easier to understand, and high quality sample libraries out there. No matter which one you have, at least a subset of the samples have reverb and panning built in, which does away with most of the hassle of actually mixing the individual patches within the whole. EWQL is a much more user and intro level friendly library than say, VSL.

At this point in time, Miroslav is an outdated and unwieldy library, and EDIROL isn't really worth mentioning in terms of quality. Miroslav was good in its heyday, but it's been replaced by much better programmed and sampled libraries since then.

The composition itself sounds pretty good, but I would suggest if you are looking to create more realistic renderings that you start composing exclusively in your DAW. This way you can bypass the extra step of adding the detailed MIDI expression and volume input needed to fully make use of a quality sample library. Not to mention the use of multiple articulations per instrument. Using multiple articulations per instrument is absolutely necessary to creating a more realistic sound, (among other things). Trying to use a Sus patch to represent staccatos is one of the most obvious examples your piece suffers from. EWQL can sound fantastic when it's used in conjunction with detailed MIDI editing. None of this stuff is really obvious to the inexperienced user, but once you manage to wrap your head around how to get the most out of the libraries you use, it'll become very easy to get a more realistic sound.

Now I know this all might sound a bit harsh, but you've definitely got some promise with this. I'm just doing my best to help you get to the next level that your piece needs, realism.

In the grand scheme of things EWQLSO is one of the easier to understand, and high quality sample libraries out there. No matter which one you have, at least a subset of the samples have reverb and panning built in, which does away with most of the hassle of actually mixing the individual patches within the whole. EWQL is a much more user and intro level friendly library than say, VSL.

At this point in time, Miroslav is an outdated and unwieldy library, and EDIROL isn't really worth mentioning in terms of quality. Miroslav was good in its heyday, but it's been replaced by much better programmed and sampled libraries since then.

Thanks to all for the comments and help, but I am going to 'pick' on this one.

I am sticking to EWQL but you are right that I need to make things sound a little more realistic. How I will achieve this I don't know.

I am using the KS Master patches on all the instruments, which I thought was going to be the best as it would contain all the artics and stuff to make it a little more real. It seems that wasn't the case, and I am not annoyed or disappointed with comments like yours. I want to make my pieces sound more realistic, but I have no experience with DAWs.

Which patches would you recommend, and I assume I can add more than one patch per instrument as I have only been using the KS Master ones for each instrument?

For many of the lines that involve longer notes, look into using DXF patches. These are patches that fade between samples using the Mod wheel. For example, on the 6 French Horn Power DXF patch, when the Mod wheel is at 0 you get a very mellow horn sound. As you increase the value of the Mod wheel towards 127 that patch gets increasingly harsher and finally ends up at a very brash and brassy sound. Use whatever you want for the shorter notes. I generally use some mixture of the staccato Round Robin patches and the Repetition patches (if available.) Also, when using strings I sometimes throw in Spiccato patches as well to add a little bit of definition to the short notes. I should also mention that this means the amount of patches you'll have to load might start to surpass your computer's available resources very fast. There are work arounds if your computer isn't strong enough to deal with the amount of resource heavy stuff you'll be doing (such as the keyswitch patches and mixing down once in a while).

DXF patches are very useful for adding humanism and expression. If you listen to recordings of pieces, players hardly ever hold out notes consistently across the length of the note. They might lean into it, crescendo/decrescendo towards the end, or any number of other things. Giving shape and direction to notes will greatly increase the realism of your pieces.

Also, keep in mind that all brass and wind players have to breathe. Strings technically don't, but there are pauses through and at the end of phrases that act like breaths for string players. A very easy way to approximate this is to shorten the end point of the note. Listen back to the line you've just sequenced and pretend you are playing it, where do you breathe? It's generally a good idea to fit in a subtle pause there.

One more thing is that you'll need to slightly unquantize your piece. Pieces that are strictly quantized immediately sound very robotic and fake. Imagine you're the conductor. Which line are you conducting? Have that line be the leader and then everything else follow. This will mean that certain notes here and there will not line up strictly with the time grid. This is generally much easier when you are sequencing instead of notating, as the expression already comes from your performance. Play around with subtle changes in the tempo track to accurately show ends of phrases and anything else you might need to change.

I've included an example of what I mean. This little line here was done using one of the Violins Sus DXF patches. Notice how very few of the notes line up with the time grid, have varying velocities (the color of the notes on the piano roll, redder means that note has a heavier velocity), and almost every note has some degree of modulation and volume expression applied to it? These things are absolutely necessary to at least semi-realistic realizations. If you want to hear it in context, as well as hear some other fairly well done MIDI realizations using EWQLSO you can download the soundtrack to a film I co-scored called The Hunt for Gollum. (I know this is slightly shameless advertising, but you'll be able to hear what I mean with all the MIDI data needing to be tweaked and what not.) The particular Violin line that I've included appears in the track entitled "The Hunt for Gollum Theme Suite" at around 1:35.

You can absolutely use different articulation patches for each instrument. At first this will feel a bit disjointed as you'll need at least 2 patches per line (at the very least, a Sus patch and a staccato patch), and you'll need to conceptualize that line across these two patches. As you learn to compose more with your DAW it will get much easier. I used to compose almost exclusively with notation, until I realized that it was just easier to use a sequencer. Sequencers allow you to do things with the samples that you couldn't do using a notation program. Believe me, I know that when you're first getting into sequencing it can seem a bit daunting, but as you gain more experience it'll get much, much easier.

Once you get into heavier sequencing you'll want to start picking up multiple sample libraries so that you don't have a, say, uniform string section sound. When trying to sequence strings realistically, I generally use some combination of EWQLSO strings, Sonic Implant Strings, and VSL strings. This way certain flaws in the samples don't show through, and the string section sounds more like it should, a group of wholly different musicians.

Whew, I should really turn this into a wiki article.

Hope this all helps!

I think I'll just compose the pieces and get a friend to do all the program stuff for me. Sounds like a great partnership.

Whew, I should really turn this into a wiki article.

Hope this all helps!

Yes, yes you should, it would be much appreciated. It will be great when I start learning how to sequence.

Anthony

I was going to say just about the same thing as Andy. The composition itself is good but the rendering needs a ton of work. The best way to learn is by doing.

The best advice Andy gave you was to quit using Sib and work exclusively in a decent DAW. I use Sonar 8 PE and am very happy with it, but it does cost. I started out though with Sonar Studio which is not as expensive yet still gives you enough of what you will need to get a better recording. In the music world today, knowing how to use a DAW is almost mandatory.

Good luck

Ron

Whilst I have read your great replies and will act on them in the best way I can, I cannot afford anymore software or hardware, and I certainly cannot afford to get nice expensive DAWs. I know with a little work my pieces will sound more authentic and real which I would love to do. However, I have to work with what I have so far. I might be able to spare some funds but it's a no go at the moment.

I would like to refine the samples and it seems I have been using the wrong samples to produce the wrong sounds. I will post something in the Eastwest forum asking for help from people there, unless someone here (who has already replied to my original post)?

I cannot really see myself composing straight into a DAW for various reasons. I like notation and writing through notation rather than writing

so true.

Well, I think it is really well composed... that means, that the idea itself is pretty solid, and if handed to a real orchestra it would sound fantastic. Now, the problems I personally hear, is the lack of dynamics almost everywhere... it is most evident on you snare rhythm. Other instruments also have a bit of trouble, but I guess it is a little harder to hear dynamics on a string section. Also I heard some trouble with the playback, don't know if you haven't rendered the song correctly or you just made some mistakes.

But I think this really has some potential, and those negative aspects of your piece should not discourage you in any way, they should just be reminders of what you should work more on your future pieces.

Well done, I like this! I found that the orchestra did a good job of painting that planetary picture you described.

I shall be working on getting this piece better rendered, and hopefully my next piece might have a little more life into it in terms of the way it will be performed.

written by Andy1044 "In the grand scheme of things EWQLSO is one of the easier to understand..."

Let me put it this way, It's easy to understand but the number of options is incredible and the number of samples which you can choose from is... uncountable... !

Ofcourse it's why better then Miroslav but Miroslav was better programed to be used.

for example: if you choose "Violins Glisando" in EWQL... that's it... one less channel to use.

In Miroslav you can program a Glisando with regular straight Violin and it will emulate the effect of a real glisando. it actually sounds OK.

So if you wand to add a nice violin to a track, you need to export it to a wave and then create new 16 midi channels only for the Violin.

the good thing about this, that with the EWQL, either the instrument comes out GREAT... or... you didn't use it right... :)

for example: if you choose "Violins Glisando" in EWQL... that's it... one less channel to use.

In Miroslav you can program a Glisando with regular straight Violin and it will emulate the effect of a real glisando. it actually sounds OK.

So if you wand to add a nice violin to a track, you need to export it to a wave and then create new 16 midi channels only for the Violin.

the good thing about this, that with the EWQL, either the instrument comes out GREAT... or... you didn't use it right... :)

You can do that in EWQL to... you just have to set it to Violin Master KS, then you can switch it from glissando to legato to staccato all on one channel as needed for the playback and piece.

About the piece, the mixing needs some work as it sounds somewhat centralized and congested. It has that canned sound that EWQL has, but you can fix this with EQ and compression work. Dynamics need work as well. The piece itself it well written from what I can tell, using nice progression and varying instrument use. I don't mean to sound degrading, but it felt a bit boring and stale. I am pretty sure the rendering had a lot to do with it. The dynamics are flat throughout and it makes it very boring, even though alot is happening arrangement wise. I think this goes to show how valuable and critical the ability to mix and master pieces is to a composer.

With all that being said, I think it will probably turn many heads once you fix this problem. Good work! :thumbsup:

You can do that in EWQL to... you just have to set it to Violin Master KS, then you can switch it from glissando to legato to staccato all on one channel as needed for the playback and piece.

About the piece, the mixing needs some work as it sounds somewhat centralized and congested. It has that canned sound that EWQL has, but you can fix this with EQ and compression work. Dynamics need work as well. The piece itself it well written from what I can tell, using nice progression and varying instrument use. I don't mean to sound degrading, but it felt a bit boring and stale. I am pretty sure the rendering had a lot to do with it. The dynamics are flat throughout and it makes it very boring, even though alot is happening arrangement wise. I think this goes to show how valuable and critical the ability to mix and master pieces is to a composer.

With all that being said, I think it will probably turn many heads once you fix this problem. Good work! :thumbsup:

There are drum rolls and cymbal rolls in the piece which didn't come out in this rendering, which have now been fixed by Jonathan L.

"...just have to set it to Violin Master KS, then you can switch it from glissando to legato to staccato all on one channel as needed for the playback and piece..."

How do I do this?

Nice instrumentation and layering.

The melody is kind of heroic, I like that.

Nice changes throughout the song too.

Hey! Great piece here. Sounds truly epic. You definitely need to wrap your head around using EWQL better to get the most out of it as others have pointed out...I know what that's like, I'm in exactly the same boat! But that's just understanding technology to make it sound more natural.

But the actual composition itself is very good. I could see it working in both the context you described and in a game, really nice to listen to although perhaps a bit string heavy at times.

Sorry for the late post, I didn't see your question to mine.

Like this:

And then...

The Orange-ish keys are key switches to change the articulation (legato, staccato, etc.) In your EWQL operation manual, it tells you whats what for each instrument, but you can also just play around with it and find out for yourself if you want :P

Hope that helps. If you have any more questions, feel free to ask!

The Orange-ish keys are key switches to change the articulation (legato, staccato, etc.) In your EWQL operation manual, it tells you whats what for each instrument, but you can also just play around with it and find out for yourself if you want :P

Hope that helps. If you have any more questions, feel free to ask!

It helps, but only if I have Kompakt - I have Play. :P