The Lord's Prayer- SATB

I just finished this piece, its a setting of the lord's prayer (the catholic version) for an SATB choir. Let me know what you guys think...

The Lord's Prayer (Final Copy).pdf

The Lord's Prayer (Final Copy) copy.mus

Before I get to what was good about this piece let me get through the bad.

The harmonic languages were very confusing and didnt seem to get along with each other through out the piece. At times the piece felt like it wanted to be more classical baroque and then at other times the piece wanted to be more modern. This made the piece sound chunky and almost patch work like (as if this was a composite of many different pieces that didnt go well together.)

Another thing I had issue was the form. Now Im not a stickler for form and I dont care if you write a piece that seems to just wonder about, however this piece needed some more structure. This piece through out seemed like it wanted to go somewhere but it never went their because it kept changing its mind. At times it felt as if it was developing to something then abruptly change course and begin in a whole new direction. This made the piece very unsettling to listen to due to the fact that it constantly felt like we were being denied something.

As far as notation errors go, there are some spelling and rhythmic issues that need to be addressed and fixed before it is placed in front of people. first off Measure 20, there has got to be a better way to notate that. The rhythm does not reflect the meter. Because you are switch meters constantly through out that section notating a rhythm like would just trip up your performers. Its almost difficult for the sake of being difficult, which is never good.

Another thing I saw was in measure 43 in where you slept the same note two different ways, D#/Eb and F#/Gb are both present and sounding at the same time.That is not only mean to the performer but the director or pianist who has to read that. I didnt see many other spelling errors but I would make sure and double check that.

Also check text setting. Some of your syllables were off and others were so flat it would be really really hard to make out what they are saying. So I would go through and see if they all fall naturally on the correct rhythmic beat.

There were some really good sections that if you exploit more would really make this piece something special. There were also some really good harmonies that I wish I could hear more of. (Mainly measures 12-21.)

Hi grizwald.

I did some additional spellingcheck: the Db in ms 37 sopr, might be strange after the C# in the bass, and later in 38 in bass and alto.

I liked the opening and the end. It gave a sense of structure to me. But I also share some of the confusion of plutokat, although I found it interesting to listen to. Like: oh an octave paralel? I thought it was funny to do a fugue-joke on the "amen"

To be honest, it made me all smile. You did some strange things. But I could imagine you don't want people to smile after your work, because you wrote something serious. It's up to you to interpret my smile as a compliment or as unwanted result of your work :)

One last thing: I wouldn't set the text "evil" on a C-major :)

I felt that there were some very nice moments, really nice moments indeed, but overall it felt like you were trying to go out of your way to make the piece "modern": odd/frequently changing meters, fun dissonance, the works; to the point where things just did not fit anymore. Like the chord on "father" felt very malevolent, doom-and-gloomy, which doesn't really speak "God the father" to me.

The song left me confused.

It felt like it was a melting pot of nice ideas and phrases, especially segments where you would pull a really nice major chord out of a mess of accidentals, but it wasn't handled gracefully. The piece is constantly changing and shifting that it never really sets its feet on the floor and shows actual direction.

I suggest picking out a theme or phrase that's most appealing, and sticking with it. If you want to make a change to a different phrase, don't jump right into it; make a transition. When the song starts, we're greeted with a nice opening that seems to contain the idea of slowly morphing through chromaticisms to major chords from measures 1-8, and then it suddenly stops and does something completely different, and from there it's a process of rinse and repeat. There's never enough time to communicate a theme thoroughly enough to enjoy, so that by the time the song ends, I can't remember what happened. There's nothing to cling on, or anything familiar; just a series of jumps.

I'd say to try listening to the song, picking out the one idea you like most, and developing it more. I personally love the way it started in 1-8, so I'd like to see more of that.

Grizwald,

What a really great piece! I loved some of the harmonies and differing textures(it kept me off my seat!). I especially enjoyed your climax to the "Deliver us from evil" and your buildup to "Amen" sections. Good stuff.

However there were some things I thought were rather difficult to understand. I also thought of some inconsistent things within your pieces. For example, in this particular situation, is are the choir singing the prayer as a prayer of reverence, or sadness/pain, or as a prayer of repentance? In Baroque music(which I can sort of compare your piece to), Chromatic notes and chords usually represented pain or suffering. So, the beginning seems off when it's a prayer worshiping God and calling Him "Father."

Also, the chord for "Father" sounds too dissonant. Is there any artistic reason why you decided to place such a chord for "Father?" Furthermore, sort of understand why you placed a major chord for "Evil"(to resolve the tension and climax from the preceding measures), but it sounds odd. I think it would better if you placed a dissonant chord or minor for that specific word.

Finally, I really enjoyed the "Amen" climax at the end. It was so awesome! But one small thing caught my attention and bothered me somehow. Due to the tension and buildup towards the end, my ear was expecting a big resolve at the end. However, after the last note before the last measure, it sounded a bit sudden. When I heard the last chord, it might have sounded magnificent alone, but when placed along with the preceding climax, it felt like you were leading my ears and promised to reward me with a big resolution. But, the last chord was a bit small and left me a little disappointed.

Overall, I think it was wonderful piece. I mean, this is far better and on a different level than what I could even start to write for a chorus piece! :)

Keep up the good work! :D

Until again,

Zach

This piece through out seemed like it wanted to go somewhere but it never went their because it kept changing its mind. At times it felt as if it was developing to something then abruptly change course and begin in a whole new direction.

I definitely agree with Pluto here. The Lord's Prayer, which has been set for a choir hundreds of times, at least, is a weird text. I realize, that it comes from a range of motion. The first few lines "Our Father, --- On Earth as it is in Heaven" is a prayer of reverence and awe. "Give us this day" is a prayer of providence. "Forgive us our debts" =forgiveness. etc, etc. Then holiness(lead us not into temptation) and protection(deliver us from evil), and then exaltation at "For thine is the Kingdom"(which is in some versions, but apparently not in yours).

Thus, this song, is often a random splay of musical ideas, because people want to play each emotion properly. I think what you need to do is not necessarily drop all the themes and ideas you have here and only use 1 and develop throughout, but allow a more seamless transition from theme to theme. At the end of an emotion, use the choir to transition itself since you don't have accompaniment. I've seen brilliant compositions that want to display multiple emotions. And they will "ooooh" or "ooooo" or "ahhhh" their way through all sorts of chord changes to get there before they say any text again. It works. That's just one idea, there are tons of ways.

As far as the enharmonic spellings of things. My suggestion is to go ahead and match the parts up. I see what you were trying to do, by making the line easier to read....thus...an alto going from an Eb to a Gb, instead of a D# to a Gb. Courtesy accidentals are your friend. A piano player isn't reading the line. He will be reading exactly what notes you play, without blinking, if your enharmonics line up. And with this piece, which has it's complexities, a rehearsal accompanist will more than likely play along. The courtesy accidentals are for the singers. And a good sight-reader will read ahead, see a D#, and then see the Eb in parenthesis and be perfectly fine a couple beats later when they get there. And it will make it easier for everyone.

Also, text setting as someone else mentioned. Accents of words need to fall on the strong beat of the measure. This may be ok with the soprano solo in mm 22, because the soloist will probably add correct emphasis and accent the proper syllables/words. However, in mm. 4..Fa- is on the weak beat and -ther is on the strong beat of the next measure. This is like saying faTHER instead of FAther as it is normally said. It seems small and insignificant, but the audience will more than likely feel the unease, as Pluto said. They probably won't know exactly what happened, but they will have a sense of unease every time words are accented with the wrong syllable on the strong beat.

Lastly, in mm. 15, 20. Anywhere you have 2 dotted eighth notes together. A much easier way to notate/read that rhythm would be two 8th notes in a tuplet. This will let the choir/pianist/conductor know that the rhythm is a 2-notes against 3-beats pattern without any confusion when sight-reading.

Otherwise....I think it's a nice piece. Very nice to listen to, and I appreciate your attention to line for each of the singers (so much even to a fault of improper enharmonics :P ). You actually tried so hard to make it easier and more able to flow that you made it more difficult. I also very much like your freedom with meters. Unlike everyone else, I enjoyed what you did on evil. I thought it represented the singers being delivered from evil. You said deliver 3 times, the 3rd time getting longer and more persistent, claiming your deliverance. And you followed that with 3 "from evils" each one closer and closer to full deliverance and freedom. The first in A minor, which is the dark/minor evil everyone wants when they hear that word sung. The second in F major, the 4 of the C major, they've been partially delivered(it's major now), but not completely. And then the 3rd evil being a complex progression to the flat major 6 of C (Ab) to the flat major 7 of C (Bb) to the C Major chord. I thought it was completely appropriate to end on the major chord there. Maybe I'm overanalyzing your work, and seeing things that you did by accident, and maybe you did it purposely. Either way, I like it a lot. A little cleaning up before you put it in front of a pianists/conductor/choir, but it will be a beautiful piece. Congrats.

wow everyone, thanks for the critiques, i didn't expect so many...

as far as enharmonic spellings go, i did what i thought was best for each individual line, obviously its not perfect, but i did what i thought i could to avoid weird intervals, like augmented seconds or diminished fourths etc., while this may cause some misspellings vertically, the horizontal relationship is much more important to me, as thats what the singers will be focusing on. there are inherent problems with our notational systems (thats why schoenberg tried (and ultimately failed) at creating a new notational system)... i reviewed each line and found that horizontally the line makes sense even when the vertical line has enharmonic spellings.

text setting... you guys are absolutely right, when i'm looking at an overall piece i tend to forget readjusting the barlines. (i try to write the music without a time signature so that i'm not limited)

the rhythm in m. 20 is a fairly standard notational device (taken directly from Elliott Carter truthfully) it reads the same as a duplet. i can change, but i think its more a matter of taste

structure- with a text like this (that lacks a clear verse/chorus or A/B relationship) i had to find a different way to structure the piece. i decided to through-compose the piece... there are reoccurring motifs (such as rising notes on heaven, a move from minor to major cadences).

the main idea that i was attempting was to start on a single note (C4 in this case)... then move away from that in constantly shifting directions. reflecting the faith journey... then as the piece comes to an end and the singers reach deliverance cadencing in C major (bringing the piece full circle)... the Amen "fugue" is a sense of relief from the aforementioned constantly shifting harmonies. finally with the last Amen the opening gesture is repeated (signaling that the faith journey is never completely over) but instead cadences in the established key of C major...

thanks to everyone who has critiqued so far, they have been helpful (even the harsher ones hehe) i appreciate it a lot.

I, as a fellow choral composer, would like to back up my colleagues in EVERY point they have made. If you do these revisions it will be a great piece. I have wanted to set this text myself, and I think I would take a similar approach... Combining the modern elements of harmony to it would be very excellent! Personally, I enjoy a dissonant approach to this prayer, because it covers such a broad aspect, going to the chromatic route will give you more freedom with your melody, cause you cannot introduce more material once you have all the keys in it.. haha.

But seriously, consider ALL your themes and use them to your advantage.

i'd like to throw out an idea you might try. I might be wrong about this and if I am, forgive me.

I noticed that the structure and style of your peice seemed very unplanned. It sounds like you just sat down at the computer and simply punched everything in in a way that sounded good in relation to the last chord. I made this mistake a lot with my first few choir pieces. Like I said, I might be wrong, you might not be doing this in the first place, but dont rely to much on your computer. Its a great tool, but its nothing more. Figure it out in your head, on the piano, on a synth keyboard, whatever. THEN use the computer for formatting, editing and final, realtime playback. Just a thought. Hope I could help in some way. keep it up!

thanks for the critiques guys... they were very helpful.

I just finished this piece, its a setting of the lord's prayer (the catholic version) for an SATB choir. Let me know what you guys think...

The audio file for this didn't work- I'd love to hear it!!