Infernal Fantasy (along with a story)

Thanks! Well, here is how the idea came to be... (is this what you were looking for?)

I live in Arizona, as many of you know. It was a hot day, and (inside) I daydreamed about some of these things. So, I decided to put my ideas into music. I thought, "The kid should be outside for an exiting ending." So, I went with one daydream for mvt. 1, one for mvt. 2, and then, if you stay out in the stupid Aridzona heat for to long, you start to feel... well, :wacko::wacko:

So, the kid eventually faints, due to no water + heat. I don't know why you are confused, but I hope this can clear it up.

Thanks,

Heckel

Heckel,

I was referring to more specific info regarding the notes themselves. The story is fine and clear but if you could clarify how the notes, harmonies, motifs, structures relate to each other and are developed that would help. Basically tell me your thought process while composing this piece. Many people have claimed that this is a random piece and if we understand how you went about composing the piece and how you developed things technically I think it would unrandomize the piece so to speak.

If you didn't really think of these things while composing, that's fine as well, it doesn't diminish the piece.

"I also suggested you to learn some harmony, counterpoint, melody leading and to try first try a more consonant piece and to always know what to want to achieve not just write random notes, know why are you write each note exactly."

"Norby, I can read, obviously. But somehow that really doesn't seem helpful..."

No comment :D:D It says everything...

Heckel,

I was referring to more specific info regarding the notes themselves. The story is fine and clear but if you could clarify how the notes, harmonies, motifs, structures relate to each other and are developed that would help. Basically tell me your thought process while composing this piece. Many people have claimed that this is a random piece and if we understand how you went about composing the piece and how you developed things technically I think it would unrandomize the piece so to speak.

If you didn't really think of these things while composing, that's fine as well, it doesn't diminish the piece.

Hmm... well, this is how I think about a piece, how I write it, ext... (how about this? This what you want?)

Well, music doesn't just jump right at me to take center stage, it happens in a slower process. First, I always have to have a scene, in the case of this piece, it was a small road in the middle of the desert. Then music slowly comes, I call this the creation process, because for about 1-2 weeks, I develop it on the piano before I can write it down, in the case of this piece, it took me about 1 week per movement. This all happens before I can actually write something... writing takes about 1 week to 6-6.5 months to finish, depending... and some pieces I never finish, in fact, many of them. But some of them do come, like this one, and usually the longer, more major ones take a LOT longer.

The development of this piece, however, is different, slightly. I came up with an idea to create a piece called Infernal Fantasy, because it was so hot outside, basically, putting daydreams and weather into music. I thought one movement at first, but then I started building music like it and stuck it into one big piece. It took me, to get the idea, as I said about 1 week for each movement. The writing took a very, very long time... it must have taken me almost 6 months to get the idea and write it and put in some of the details. Writing took about 1/3 of it. The piece itself, how the notes were developed, came by the names I came up with. Wild dance, mvt. 1, I thought about what it would be like, what it would sound like, and I thought "Hmm... heavy double reeds... I'll use another oboe here. I think it needs a lot of jumping around in notes." So the beginning has the oboe d'amore solo with hoping down to the c often. And I used lots of oboes, but there are other reasons I did that :rolleyes:I like oboes!And so, as I said, I was trying to put daydreams into music, describing what the wild dance is like. In the second movement, Wind and Fire and Rain and Snow, I was trying to make weather patterns in music, using the instruments that I feel were needed. You'll notice how little flute I use, because the music for that movement wasn't flute like music, so to say. Mvt 3, Massive Hypnosis, I thought about what it would be like to be out in the heat and suddenly forget and start to get, as I said, :wacko:. So I tried to put the oozy feeling, shall we call it, into music. With all the chromatic things, I thought it described the feeling pretty well, and in the end there is a lot of the same slowly slowing down, getting slower and slower as less and less goes on, and by the end of the movement, the kid outside has fainted. I thought using a lot of the same stuff and getting slower represented the eventual collapse, and I used a more mellow, calmer sound for that part, because, I mean, who's all exited when your about to fall asleep? So, then I thought, the last movement should sound like it has many collapses, with all the sudden bang at the end of the phrases. I thought it should be a lot less, well, wacky and should be more of just a collapse to the end. The choir at the end represents the calmness of sleep, and you will notice that ideas from previous movements come back, this is because I wanted to bring back some of the liveliness and ideas of the previous movement, and the A minor chord at the end represents death almost, and every other detail about the piece has to do with the movement and the feeling you would get from the idea I came up with.

I can't really explain it better. I hope this can "clarify your butter" :D

wow, do you actually hear this music in your head? some part sounds soo complex..i generally liked it alot

wow, do you actually hear this music in your head? some part sounds soo complex..i generally liked it alot

Yes :D I have to hear it in my head before I can write it. Glad you liked it!

Listened to some of this; definitely better than your "Winds off the Atlantic". This is what I'm talking about, dude. Keep it up.

Listened to some of this; definitely better than your "Winds off the Atlantic". This is what I'm talking about, dude. Keep it up.

Thankz :) I'm glad it's better than that silly thing :P

I have to say I was impressed, especially for someone your age. There were some really great melodies and harmonies. I don't really listen to atonal music, so I found some parts a bit strange. But overall, i enjoyed the piece.

I have to say I was impressed, especially for someone your age. There were some really great melodies and harmonies. I don't really listen to atonal music, so I found some parts a bit strange. But overall, i enjoyed the piece.

Thanks for listening.

Keep the comments coming!

Heckelphone,

Happy to comment here on your music. Firstly, I will say that I don't like atonal music much (it is likely due to the fact that it is foreign to me and nothing more I am quite certain). I don't hear this as atonal at all in most parts. I understand it somehow.

I really like the themes you went with and the overall 'sense' that dissonance can bring about consonance. Regardless of how you "heard this in your head," or possibly even sometimes stumbled across some new ideas by accident (as we all do). The piece simply works.

As a matter of opinion however, I feel that I should also point out that there isn't any dynamic to the work/draft/piece. All at one volume level... and not much room for error. If you were not shooting for humanistic, then well done. If you "were" trying to make this as if a human could possibly play this, then some more work could and should be done. In addition, the .mp3 format you mentioned earlier in your thread that you were coming up with sooner or later would be a VERY good thing. This will make sure all people hear the same thing at the same tempo. Between different computers and different third party midi players there are variances that one might not account for. Making this a priority in the near future to get it recorded to .mp3 format would be in my opinion, a good idea.

All in all.. AWESOME!

And uhm... Norby, 2 things... 1: Sorry your parents (or you decided to) named you anything that starts with "norb" and 2: It is so obvious you are jealous that is sickens me. Relax and improve upon your own skills rather than take out your frustration on a 10 year old. Truly sad. Now go away and stay away.

I enjoyed it, but not a big fan on the atonality. But oh well. This an interesting composition.

Hello!

I would like to say first hand that I am not an expert in orquestration; so I restrain from going into that matter. Nevertheless,(from my first hearing it) I have enjoyed the third movement of all. Not that I didn't care for the rest; But, in my opinion the 3rd one was more elavorative. It has a movie type sounding effect. It is eloquent as far as putting musical ideas together,specially at the end; and I think if you can derive from that movement and write new pieces taking it as a model it would certainly make a difference in your future writing

Please use countermelodies in your music for it would certainly give it a more sophisticated air. In fact interposing one idea with another along with a solid harmonic background can and will sophisticate your music.

As for the 1st,2nd and 4th, movement I will have to listen to them again for by hearing them once didn't really do it for me. Your use of glisandi in unison can be a little grotesque ,for my taste, at times. And your use of 'atonal' dissonances should be observed more carefuly; it should have a coherent, solid and symmetric structure. Meaning ramdomness without balance and form , is intrusive to the ear and may dissapoint listeners pretty quickly.

On another note, Please explore a little more in the world of tonality if you may, or if not you can always follow your heart and write what first come to your mind

Good luck and Good efford.

Javier

This may be beating a dead horse at this point and it's certainly going to be interpreted as 'bullying' but honestly, most of this was crap and I'm sorry to have to say this but you did not deserve the prize you got with this. Even taking into account your age and giving you a huge handicap, I can't say I was impressed with this. I mean... actually, it's about exactly what I'd expect from a ten year old who listens to early 20th century music. I know this is harsh and might even be interpret as attacking you out of pure jealousy but... it's not. I'd love to love your music. I've wanted to like just about everything I've ever heard from you but... I just can't. I'm commenting on this one particularly because of the award you won with it which is just... undeserved in my honest opinion and I feel the only reason you *did* get it was because you were 10 and attempting something 'atonal' for large orchestra.

Now, that preface out of a way, I'm going to make some general comments to better justify my fairly strong words.

-Simply put, this piece brings home the point that there is a huge, huge difference between writing free atonal music and putting random notes. I'm sorry but I sense absolutely nothing in the way of harmonic consistency. In fact, I don't even think I can call this atonal actually. It sounds like badly harmonized tonal music.

-To further bring the association with tonal music in mind is the pure rhythmic retardedness of this. I've read more than one book that has pointed out that rhythm plays an active role in harmonic cohesion and vice versa. If rhythm is too relatively stable for such 'unstable' harmony, the association that will come into most audience's minds is that of badly harmonized tonal music. One book pointed to examples in Berg and Schoenberg, showing how 'romantic' tendencies could still be very much heard due to the conservative use of rhythm and compared several Schoenberg rhythms to those of Beethoven. Your rhythm is flat, boring, periodic, and uninteresting. This makes your harmonic sense even less convincing.

-There is also about nothing in the way of counterpoint in this. I can't recall one instance of more than maybe fleeting two voice counterpoint. And granted, counterpoint is not necessary to a good composition and admittedly, I do have a bit of a bias towards it since I'm a polyphony hoe but... I feel like a lot of your musical ideas fall so flat. I hear instances begging for counterpoint but there just is none. It's very hard to write a convincing work for large orchestra with not a hint of polyphony and yours is no exception to this.

-The orchestration... is just awful. I can't imagine this sounding anything like the MIDI in an actual staging of this. It didn't even feel written for an orchestra just so much as whatever random instrument you wanted at the time. When that instrument lost its purpose, you seemed to forget all about it.

-I might be being too unfair and unobservant in this next one but... I didn't really notice a hint of thematic material in any of this. Now, for something like this, I can't exactly expect a well-pronounced melody or classical structures but... I just hear almost zero in the way of *any* recurring ideas whether it be melodically, harmonically, rhythmically, orchestrationally, or even in a broad gestural sense.

-Following this, I hear absolutely no sense of structure in any of the movements. Not even so much in a simple 'beginning - middle - end' or a series of increases and decreases in tension. There's just... nothing. All of the movements seem to start and end arbitrarily. And I don't really get any sense of why this is four movements. There appears to be no cohesion between them. The fourth movement felt like it could've just as easily been the first and so on.

To sum up, this really did just feel like random note composition in just about every sense of the word. I can understand why older composers may have decided to take an interest in you on the sole merit of what you're *attempting* to do at such an early age. So many composers are so far constrained in artistic straight jackets that they may never even reach the point where they'd *attempt* something like this. And so, yes. I can see why you won that award. I honestly don't think it had anything to do with actual compositional ability.

But I will end on some positive notes as to make this avoid the realm of soul-killing.

-It really is impressive that you're attempting anything of this sort at this age. I wasn't even interested in music until 13 so even despite what I perceive as a lack of compositional ingenuity, the fact that you *wanted* to do this puts you leap years ahead of most. I think by the time you reach 18, you will be writing some impressive stuff. Or at the very least, interesting stuff.

-Even despite my basic assertion that this is 'random note composition', there were isolated moments of beauty. They were fleeting. like... literally about three seconds every once in a while. But the fact that they caught my ear is still something. I've heard many compositions on here that have not caught my ear for even a single second.

-I actually think the second movement has potential. It showed promise at some moments and, more than any of the others, I was intrigued by the colors you attempted to use. I think it could work under a major recomposition and expansion. In fact, more than anything, I'd suggest you make this the whole Infernal Fantasy as it's the only movement, for me, that seemed evocative of what you were trying to achieve at all. Maybe re-use some of the moments form other movements and synthesize them into one coherent movement.

Anyway, I know that it might seem kind of pointless to comment on this now but this is actually the first time I've listened to the work in full after over a year of being aware you were the youngest recipient of an award that currently escapes my mind because of this piece. That fact... simply bothers me. And it bothers me more that seemingly no one has said to you that this just is not a very good piece off music. I perhaps partly blame it on a lack of awareness of the 20th century in music and, to a lot of people, this is just like what all those dudes were writing or whatever. It's all 'atonal' anyway right? But, as someone who passionately studies and explores 20th century 'classical' music, I can say that.. this just really is not good.

I wish you the best in the composing career and provided you maintain interests and studies in these sorts of things, I think there is little doubt you will be writing music I'll enjoy or find interesting by the time you're my age. I just feel it necessary to comment on these sorts of things because I believe it's not the million compliments that makes a composer improve, but the one negative review that really sticks in a composers' mind. I've certainly had a few of those experiences and they've always made me a better person for it. Either because I realized they made some crucial points that I would then set to remedy or they made some completely horrible points that have forced me to think exactly why I disagree with them and strengthened my own personal stance on composition. I hope my review will react the former to you but, if even the latter, I'll just be happy to have made an impact.

I have to disagree with Nirvana here. I actually enjoyed a large part of this. The midi, however, is absolutely horrible! Get your dad to premiere this piece and put a better recording up, PLEASE! That said, it's fascinating that you wrote this 2 years ago now... a lot of your more current works aren't anywhere near this. Why the move back to tonality? I think you should really explore this side of you... it's got a lot of potential.

You'll see. I am starting the great change once again.

Soon to come.

BTW thanks for both of your comments!!

(And I hate the midi too :P)