Nirvana 69

I'm a self-taught composer of about two years now. I've never had any formal training above what I've taught myself through analysis of scores and being on this forum. My interests lie in a wide variety of 20th century composers such as Debussy' date=' Ravel, Varese, Messiaen, Bartok, Poulenc, Barber, and Berg. The more I learn, the more my interests lean towards harmonically complex tonal music and I'm trying to find a way to synthesize various elements of the composers I listed above into a coherent style while still being open to new things. For the past five months, I've been working on a giant Theme and Variations for clarinet, viola, and piano. As stubborn as I've been towards doing it entirely on my own, I think I've broken down and am admitting that I might not have enough knowledge on my own to finish it. I have over 20 minutes of rough material right now and am still not particularly close to done.

What I'm looking for mainly is to extend my harmonic and rhythmic palette while also getting exposed to new and different contemporary ideas. Also, I would like a better sense of counterpoint and perhaps, most importantly, I'd like to be able to learn how to write themes as it has always been a weak point in my compositions.[/quote']

This all sounds very do-able. ;)

Well, there's really only one way to get this started. Post (or if you're more comfortable, I'll send you my email and you can send it directly to me) your score. Also, I'd like to know a bit more about what you're ideas were with the piece.

What were your plans harmonically, melodically, coloristically, rhythmically, formally and structurally, etc.? How you're using your theme, etc. Basically, what your ideas were, how you're implementing them, and some background on the piece.

Also, is there anything in particular you'd like to learn? I mean you said "extend [your] harmonic and rhythmic palette" but let me know if you'd like to work on exercises and more theory based things or if you just want to go through your compositions and then discuss based on that (discuss composers and theories as it related to your work, rather than, say, a crash course in music theory). Either works for me.

Hey, thanks for accepting my application so soon. Honestly, after waiting about three months for the last application (which never went through), I wasn't very optimistic.

Sending a score might be kind of hard since it's a total mess. A secret shame of mine is that I've always composed through Guitar Pro. Not because I can't read notes but because it's simply a lot easier for me to use and get my ideas out quickly and I'm way more comfortable with the program. Unfortunately, a draw back is that the PDFs it puts out are scraggy. I had every intention of putting an actual score into Finale once it was finished but... it's still far from that. One thing I can do is give you a rough MIDI now and slowly work on putting the entire piece into Finale. I realize you won't be able to help a whole lot just through audio but it might be able to give you some idea of what I'm doing.

As far as anything particular I would like to learn... one composer's whose harmonic, rhythmic, and contrapuntal technique has really had me interested lately is Edgard Varese's. Unfortunately, I can't seem to find any of his scores anywhere. So, all I have to go by is my ear. As far as I can tell, his pieces tend to focus around quartal harmony. Perfect fourths and tritones seem very common and he has a way of... mixing modal elements with ones that don't imply any kind of tonal center. He also seems to have a unique approach to development where there isn't real "form" in the traditional sense but pieces are propelled forward by short, recurring gestures (such as a crescendo on a chord or a single held note... always untransposed) that sort of mutate throughout the piece. I'm not sure how much of this is correct but it'd be great if there was some way we could analyze some of Varese's works.

Another composer I've been rather interested in is Messiaen. For the past few weeks, I've been trying to get through Messiaen's book on his compositional practices. And while I've ascertained certain rhythmic and melodic ideas from the book, I have to admit a lot of it confuses the hell out of me. It would be easier if I had access to entire Messiaen scores as opposed to being forced to just look at small excrepts of his work but Messiaen is another composer I can't find anything from. So anything you could explain to me about Messiaen's work would greatly be appreciated.

In general though, I've been looking for various ways to synthesize bi-tonality and quartal harmony into my tonal language... and without much luck. So, if everything else I've asked for is too complex/vague as a starting point, then a crash course in quartal and bi-tonal harmony for dummies would greatly be appreciated.

I don't know much (or anything) about Guitar Pro, but as long as it puts notes on a staff (or not on a staff, depending on what kind of music you're doin' ;)) I'll be fine deciphering it. For a work in progress I'm not expecting a crisp, clean score. I completely realize that its in "first draft" form. So at least some kind of score would give me a good idea of what you're going for. MIDI is fine too (though if you can convert it to an MP3, thats even better), but of the two I'd rather have the score, but having both doesn't hurt. Since you said you needed help with it I'd like to give you some suggestions ASAP. I'd like to be able to work our theoretical studies and analyses around and into what you're doing.

While we're on the subject, score preparation will definitely be something we discuss, as making a good looking score and notating well are just as important as writing the music. Its also an underdeveloped skill that I've seen on this forum.

In terms of quartal harmony, we should start from the beginning. Check out some medieval works by Perotin and Leonin, Du Fay, etc. also, some Renaissance music of lets say, Josquin and madrigals of Montiverdi, Gesualdo, and Marenzio. Also, the "Cruxifixus" of Bach's Mass in B Minor and perhaps the 22nd Fugue from the Well-Tempered Clavier. Now these aren't necessarily "quartal" harmonies in the sense that you're talking about, but they are works that have a strong emphasis on fourths. Also Mozart's K. 464 and K. 465 (Dissonance quartet) put a lot of emphasis on fourths and on fourth suspensions. Following that I would suggest familiarizing yourself with some of Skryabin's later piano sonatas, specifically the 6th, as well as Prometheus. If you'd like we can also discuss his "Mystic" chord a bit and it's harmonic and melodic application in some of his music, as it consists of an augmented fourth, diminished fourth, augmented fourth, and two perfect fourths. Some of Hindemith's works, such as Mathis der Maler, Ives' The Cage (which, while its a short work, I would like to focus on it a bit), Webern's Four Pieces for Violin and Piano, Op. 7, and, probably most importantly, Schoenberg's Chamber Symphony, Op. 9. I can try to help you get your hands on recordings if you need it. Also, Ruggles' Sun-treader.

In terms of bi- and polytonality I would say famililiarize yourself with Mozart's K. 522, Milhaud's Le Boeuf sur le Toit, many of Ives' works -- some of the Psalm settings (I'll have to get back to you on numbers) are really good for this, as Ives' was in "exparementing" mode with them, so basically they focus on one particular technique, Ives then took that and combined it with other techniques in later works -- Variations on America, is a pretty popular one that uses some polytonality, also Bjork's "Human Behavior" from Debut, Stravinsky, Messiaen, some Strauss (Salome), etc.

Bartok's Mikrokosmos and Wallingford Riegger's The Old and the New have good examples of both.

Also, I'll sift through some stuff and pull out some articles for you to read on the subject; analyses of works, articles on polytonality and quartal harmonies, that kind of thing. I'll try and get those to you ASAP.

From there we can go into some analysis of works (again, I'd like to start with the Ives piece). But I would like you to brush up a lot first. And don't worry, we'll get to the Varese and the Messiaen.

Also, send over whatever other music that you have -- if I know your music, I can help you more.

EDIT:

Check out Ives setting of Psalm 67.

Alright. Sounds good. I'll look at everything you recommended later today. I would've yesterday but I got tied up with some friends for most of the day.

I actually am quite familiar with a lot of Scriabin's later work. For a brief while, I was obsessed with Scriabin's late sonatas and have studied the 7th and 9th pretty intently. The 6th I am admittedly less familiar with. I've done a formal analysis and found it quite interesting everything Scriabin manages to do with relatively little material in the confines of sonata-allegro. But I never really approached it from a harmonic standpoint. To be honest, in my analysises of both the 7th and 9th sonata, I've found it hard to relate the mystic chord to either of them other than the occasional sporadic appearance of fragments of the chord such as a tritone and minor 7th stacked on top of each other or minor 7th and then tritone (sorry, don't know the proper names for either of those chords). However, I did find it interesting that the the mystic chord makes almost a full appearance in the fifth sonata at random intervals.

I never really thought of Scriabin as using quartal harmony though. His later sonatas seems largely grounded in the octatonic mode sprinkled with the occasional chromatic gesture and sometimes very odd and striking diatonic moments. So perhaps I have a misconception of what exactly "quartal harmony" is.

As for the score, I'll have that to you later today (Though, I warn you, I'm not exaggerating when I say it's sloppy). I'd feel more comfortable sending it to you through email.

Also, is Ives scores in public domain? He's honestly always been a composer that interested me but I never looked much into. Suppose it's kind of an obvious place to start if I'm interested in bi-tonality.

Anyway, will post again later today after I listen to some of the pieces you recommended.

EDIT: May need some help with finding a recording of Webern's Four pieces and Schoenberg's Chamber Symphony... as well as a score if that's at all possible. <.<

Skryabin's can be a "different" kind of quartal than maybe you're used to. Perhaps some wouldn't call some of his music quartal, but because the Mystic chord is a synthesis of every fourth possible with 12 tones, I'd say that the it is definitely grounded in quartal ideas. Also, even just scanning through the score for the 6th sonata quickly, you can see that its riddled with quartal and quintal harmonies. So he's definitely thinking quartal-ly.

In terms of poly/bitonality, Ives is definitely a composer worth knowing, as he was one of the first to use it. I'd be happy to go into a discussion on Ives as well as the American "ultramodernists" -- Seeger's dissonant counterpoint, Cowell's clusters and rhythmic ideas, Ruggles' extention of Seeger's ideas and his "12 tone" system, Ives techniques, etc. -- at some point. Which ties into what you were interested in learning, since Varese was very much a part of that group. We could also tie in Cage, Harrison, Carter, and Partch. But I'm getting ahead of myself here.

If you're having trouble finding some recordings you can listen too, I may be able to set up a podcast type thing. You shouldn't have trouble finding the Schoenberg recording, his first Chamber Symphony is a pretty famous piece.

Once you're familiar with some of those and have read through the articles that will be posted, we'll be able to discuss these ideas a bit more in depth and start some analyses!

I'll PM you my email address and have some comments for you once I get a chance to look over the score(s).

SCORES:

Skryabin - Piano Sonata No. 6

Webern - Four Pieces for violin and piano, Op. 7

Ives - 114 Songs, The Cage is number 64 (on page 148).

Mozart - K. 464, K. 465, and K. 522

Bach - Mass in B Minor, BWV 232: III. Credo (Cruxifixus starts on page 32 of the PDF, says page 186 at the top)

The Bartok was on IMSLP, but it's been "flagged" so the PDF isn't available, but you may be able to find it. The Ives psalm settings should be in the public domain, as they were written in the 1890s. But if you can't find it, if you have the means, you might want to consider purchasing them. The Ives scores are published by Theodore Presser and are very cheep. The Schoenberg score is published by Dover and isn't very expensive either.

ARTICLES:

The Critique of Tonality in the Early Experimental Music of Charles Ives by J. Peter Burkholder

Tone-Problems of To-day by Alfredo Casella and Theodore Baker

Stravinsky's Chords (I) (II) by G. W. Hopkins

Fin-de-siecle Fantasies: "Elektra", Degeneration and Sexual Science by Lawrence Kramer (Section 3)

The Harmony of Berg's "Reigen" by Bruce Archibald

Harmonic Resources in Bart

Sorry for not getting back to you sooner. Second day in a row I've had friends unexpectedly show up at my door and force me to go out with them.

Anyway, I just looked over Webern's 4 pieces for Violin and Piano. Unfortunately, I couldn't find a recording on Youtube so I had to manually input it all into MIDI (I do this anyway when I analyze a piece as it forces me to slow down and actually look at everything). I have to say that I rather enjoyed all four pieces (even with General MIDI's terrible violin sound). I've never heard a non-serial work from Webern so it was interesting to see what Webern did with "free" atonality.

Some things I noticed:

-All four pieces seem to emphasize major 7ths and minor 9ths (which could be seen as the same interval by inversion) In fact, the prominence of the major 7th seems to work as a unifying idea in the work. Each piece explores slightly different pitch classes that contain the major 7th such as the first piece with (0, 4. 8. e) or an augmented triad with a major 7th extension. Or the third piece with the pitch class (0, 5, 6, e). Though one pitch class that seems to appear in all four pieces is (0, 6, e).

-Thirds don't generally appear unless they're stacked(such as augmented or diminished triads) or "masked" behind more dissonant intervals (like minor 9ths or major 7ths). I'm guessing this was a conscious decision by Webern to avoid any kind of implication of tonality. One peculiar exception I've noticed though is Webern's repeated use of the 6/4 inversion. It strikes me as odd especially in the first piece where it's heard naked and seems to almost set up a cadence. In fact, the repeated usage of the chord implies a "tonality" that never resolves.

-Harmonic planing and contrary motion. I notice Webern does one of two things with chords a lot... either he will take a chord and move all of the voices in parallel motion (such as in the first piece with the (0, 4, e) pitch class in the right hand) or he will take a chord and have the voices move in contrary motion to each other (such as having the top voice of a sixth descend chromatically and the lower voice ascend chromatically)

-Webern's use of rhythm is what I find most striking and interesting about the work. There is a constant battle between two and three. Both metrically and rhythmically. The only metrical changes that occur are always between a double and triple meter and the tension in this is only magnified by the fact that Webern hardly ever allows for a rhythmic cadence on an expected beat. In fact, Webern seems to consciously set up "tradtional" rhythmic cadences only to throw them off by adding an extra note on a "weak" beat and putting all the stress on there (such as eighth note, dotted eight note, sixteenth note, (expected cadence) eight note, (actual cadence) quarter note).

-Besides the major 7th and 9th, Webern also uses the perfect fourth and tritone a lot. Both in melodic motion and chord construction. The prominence of the fourth could explain the repeated use of the 6/4 inversion. Maybe Webern wasn't thinking of it so much as an "unresolved" triad as simply a fourth with extra color to it. In fact, maybe the major 7th shouldn't be analyzed so much as an interval in itself as just the result of two stacked fourths (like a perfect fourth and then tritone or tritone than perfect fourth).

Anyway, I'm not sure how much of this is accurate but this is just some stuff I've noticed.

Next, I'm probably going to check out Ives' The Cage so I'll try to post a few comments on that later tonight. As well as sending you that score.

Also, I tried looking at some of the articles but they would only allow me to view the first page of it. I assume it's because I'm not a member. When I tried to sign-up, it said that private students were not allowed to have accounts.

Okay... I'm going to need some help with this Ives piece. I'm not even sure how to begin analyzing it other than it definitely seems to favor fourths. The vocal line seems to mainly consist of partials of the whole tone scale and modulates between the two possible modes of the whole tone somewhat freely. The prominence of major seconds in the vocal line creates a somewhat interesting intervalic contradiction with the piano line as it mainly seems to favor minor seconds and thirds and has a very penatonic flavoring. It's tough for me to analyze harmony between the vocal line and the piano line though as they don't really appear to line up (the vocal line consistently takes up less duration than the piano per measure).

Hey man, sorry for the super long delay in getting back to you.

You made some fantastic observations in your analysis of the Webern piece, and actually touched on something that I wanted to discuss further with you.

Besides the major 7th and 9th, Webern also uses the perfect fourth and tritone a lot. Both in melodic motion and chord construction. The prominence of the fourth could explain the repeated use of the 6/4 inversion. Maybe Webern wasn't thinking of it so much as an "unresolved" triad as simply a fourth with extra color to it. In fact, maybe the major 7th shouldn't be analyzed so much as an interval in itself as just the result of two stacked fourths (like a perfect fourth and then tritone or tritone than perfect fourth).

Now with quartal harmony there are multiple ways you can look at it. Yes in its most basic form, a quartal harmony would involve a stack of fourths or fifths. But as with other chords there are other variations, different sized intervals (diminished and augmented fourths and fifths), as well as various inversions.

Take a look at the examples. Upon initial inspection, they might not appear to be quartal harmonies, but they are all constructed on fourths or fifths.

This is what Webern is doing. And its also another way to approach quartal writing, as it opens up new kinds of voicing and harmonies.

In terms of the Ives, analyze the piano chords, and the melodic line. What are his harmonies? How do they align with the melody? Are those pitches in the harmonies? What about rhythm? Let me know what specifically you're having problems with.

EDIT: Attached the examples.

Quartal Chord Examples.pdf

Oh, it's no problem. I just figured you were giving me the cold shoulder because I still hadn't sent you my clarinet, viola, and piano piece. Honestly, I've been kinda holding back since it's not really the direction I want to go with my music anymore. It's a shame to waste it and some day, I probably will revamp it and totally finish it but right now, quartal harmony is really what has my interest. That being said, I started a piece for viola and piano a few nights ago based around what I've learned from quartal harmony so far. Initially, it was only intended to be a short elegy but something rare happened to me when I started to right it; a melody actually came to me. Something I've always had trouble with was writing themes so it was quite gratifying to actually come up with something lyrical and longer than a few measures.

So, now I'm working on a series of short variations around it now. Or rather, I'd prefer to call it "Mutations on a theme" because of how exactly I want to take the piece developmentally. In the interest of not wanting to be long-winded and undeservedly pretentious, I'll spare you the explanation in this post. But, if you're interested, I can send a PDF and MIDI.

I'm going to look over The Cage again tonight and see what I can find.

P.S. While I'm not entirely sure how *all* of those chords fit into quartal, the list you gave me had some damn beautiful chords on there. Some of which I already regularly used without really realized they could be analyzed quartally.

One question, how would the diatonic cluster chord (E, F, G, A) fit into quartal harmony?

EDIT: I've also been listening to some Ruggles for the past few days. I can definitely hear a tie-in with Varese in Ruggles' music though Ruggles' music seems much more... traditional for lack of better term. Sun-Treader didn't really do much for me (may have to give it a few more listens before I appreciate it) but I found Evocations to be rather interesting. You said Ruggles had his own twelve-tone system that was different from Schoenberg? Would you mind going into some detail about it?

Well lets talk about this viola mutations then. Send me the PDF and MIDI. (Congrats on the melody coming out... perhaps now you've found a style that works with what you want to do?)

Okay, so the quartal chords I gave you in the examples (by the way, I should have been clearer, but all of the accidentals carry over in a measure):

The first chord pretty obviously built on perfect 5ths, the second chord, pretty obviously built on perfect 4ths. Notice that they are "inverses" of one another. So you can use that as a way of harmonic variation. Now some might say "oh, they're the same chord", but because the of the reliance on 5ths in the first chord and of 4ths in the second, it changes the functionality of the harmonies in addition to the sound.

The third chord takes notes from the first, built using 4ths and 5ths (so you get that octave in there). But yeah, its a combination of 4ths and 5ths.

The fourth chord, again, is another variation on the first. The first fifth is transposed up an octave so its a bit closer to the second fifth. For some added "crunchyness" you could throw that top A♮ of the first chord in there.

The first chord of measure 2 takes the first chord of measure 1 and omits the G♮ and the C♮, then just placed the remaining pitches (F♮, D♮, A♮) in a more familiar voicing, a D minor triad in 2nd inversion (which is what you were talking about in the Webern piece).

The second chord is just stacked fourths, omitting every other one.

The third chord is a re-voicing of the second.

The fourth chord (which to clarify, is E♭, F♮, G♮, A♮ -- a cluster built on whole steps) is just another re-voicing of the second.

The first chord of measure 3 is built on a tritone, a perfect 5, another perfect fifth, and a tritone.

The second chord is a re-voicing.

The third chord is a normal quartal chord.

The fourth chord is a re-voicing of the third.

So as you can see, there are a number of ways to present a quartal harmony outside of just stacked fourths. Omissions, inversions, etc. are all allowed and are perfectly acceptable. Through just inversions and re-voicing of the first chord in measure 1, you can create tons of harmonies. So through quartal writing, just through some octave displacements and omissions you're able to enrich your harmonic language a ton.

I mean, lets be serious, a stack of 12 4ths or 5ths will result in a 12-tone cluster. Now I wouldn't initially see a cluster and think, "hmmm, quartal harmony", but in the proper context, it certainly would be one.

I hope that clears some things up.

Okay, in terms of Ruggles, Sun-treader is perhaps one of his more "important" works, though to be honest with you, I'm not so crazy about it either. It does have a lot of quartal chords.

In terms of his 12-tone system (which is actually based on, and pretty much is, Charles Seeger's theories of dissonant counterpoint, etc. -- Seeger was sort of the "mastermind" of the American "ultramodernists", Cowell studied with him, and got a lot of ideas from him, Ruggles, Crawford, Beyer, etc. all used his theories), its basically of system of non-repetition. So Ruggles doesn't use tone rows or classic serialist permutations. What he basically does is write a pitch and then doesn't repeat it until at least 8 other pitches have been stated.

So if we have a line (which is from Portals):

F♮, E♮, B♭, A♮, G♯, C♯, G♮, C♮, E♭, B♮, F♯, D♮, B♭, A♭, G♮, A♮, F♮, C♯, B♮, D♯, E♮, D♮, B♭, A♭, etc.

You'll notice the first 12 pitches are every pitch from the chromatic scale are present, but the next few pitches are not a permutation of the first. It also is interesting to note that the B♭ is repeated every 10 pitches. As you can see, it, like Schoenberg's system, forces an "equality" of pitches.

Its pretty simple, there isn't much too it aside from that. I mean, we could discuss different lines in the music, but yeah, unfortunately most of my scores are in storage right now (but only for a few more days!), so I can't grab my Evocations score and pull out some examples for you right now and get a bit more detailed. I do have the music for his Toys, but that doesn't use this technique, so I can't really give you examples from that. So, since I can't really go into it more in depth without being able to give you specific more examples, I will direct you to a couple of analyses of his system (they're not great articles, but there is some good info in there).

The "Twelve-Tone System" of Carl Ruggles - A Study of the Evocations for Piano by Steven E. Gilbert

Carl Ruggles and Total Chromaticism by Steven E. Gilbert

Ah. Thank you for explaining all of the chords. So, basically, quartal harmony is determined far more by usage than actual content. A piece can have a ton of fourths and still not technically be considered "quartal" if the piece still remains centered around triads i.e. using fourths as extensions, suspensions, or "thickening of unisons" (like Debussy).

Huh, so that's all there really is to Ruggles' twelve tone system? Strikes me as kind of a novelty and not much more. I suppose there are some interesting things you could do with by layering it over with numerological principles (such as what you pointed out with Bb being repeated every 10 pitches).

You talked about being willing to discuss more about the American ultramodernists? I'd be very much up for whatever you could tell me about them. All I can find on them is a few paragraphs on Wikipedia. Cowell is a composer that always has interested me but I've never really found much of his music. I recall having to listen to one of his pieces for Music Appreciation last year called "Banshee" (or something like that) where the piece was based almost entirely around rubbing and creating friction on the piano wires while depressing the pedals. I found it rather beautiful but that's about as much exposure as I've had with Cowell.

I sent you a PDF and MIDI today. Though, listening back on it, I probably should have cleaned it up a bit more before sending it to you. Anyway, any comments you can give me would be great.

Got your articles as well so I suppose I'll have that to keep me busy for the next few days.

Hey. Haven't heard from you in a while. Are we still on for lessons? I don't mean to be a bother. Just curious.

I've been listening to a lot of Cowell lately. In particularly, Dynamic Motion and the Four Encores have my interest. Any articles or discussion you could provide me with about Cowell would be great. In general, I'm starting to get into the ultra-modernists. I don't necessarily want to write music like them but there's a lot of interesting stuff here I'd like to explore.

Hey man,

Sorry. I'm really busy these days so I haven't even had a chance to really look closely at your score.

However, I will certainly get into Cowell and the other Americans if you'd like.

Pick up Cowell's New Musical Resources and, if you can, Charles Seeger's Studies in Musicology I and II as these are pretty much the entirety of the theories explored by Crawford, Beyer, and Ruggles.

I'm attaching a bibliography for you to check out. I can get more specific soon. Its a bit rhythm heavy, but thats because I find the rhythmic explorations of the Americans quite interesting.

Cowell present's Stockhausen's rhythmic ideas years before!

Oh. It's no problem. Just contact me whenever you're free. I'm appreciative that you give lessons at all so I won't complain if you're busy with more important stuff.

I'll try to check out the Cowell and Seeger books though. Unfortunately, I can't seem to find them available over the internet (going to a library for books lolwut). But I'll try nonetheles.