Opening of Orchestral Movement

Hey everyone, I had a few ideas come to me and I decided to expand on it. It's not close to done, even the parts I have so far, but what I wanted to know is does it get boring, since I repeat something like the main melody over and over?

And if you have suggestions on how to make it better, I would appreciate the extra help, thanks :]

edit: I realize it says symphony, I'm not actually going to write seven movements or whatever the normal is. I'm just writing stuff down for fun. And I realize the strings should be below thepercussion, that was a dumb mistake.

(For the MP3 I would just press play, it's really big, not sure why...

http://www.box.net/shared/2k2i4kb1fn

Symphony #1.pdf

And thus, he writes an orchestral piece!

How much orchestration do you know? Because a lot of "practical" rules of orchestral scores are being followed here. I'll point them out first:

Score Order

While tempting to follow whatever Finale does or whatever order you want, there is a set order that has pretty much been standardized over the last 200 years. It goes thus:

Piccolo

Flute

Oboe

English Horn

Clarinet in E-flat

Clarinet in B-flat/A

Bass Clarinet

Bassoon

Contrabassoon

Horns in F

Trumpets in C

Trombones

Tuba

Timpani

Percussion (Order varies for the section. Various schemes exist including order by pitch, material, playing method, and tuning etc.)

Piano/Celesta

Harp

Violin I

Violin II

Viola

Violoncello

Double Bass

Any "weird" instruments will usually fit somewhere in that scheme nicely i.e. saxes go under Clarinets and above Bassoons.

Instrument Numbers

Did you just put one of everything? Or are there 40 flutes and 3 oboes and 165 Glockenspiels? Numbers of instruments are very important for the orchestra. Standard orchestras today would have something along the lines of this:

Piccolo (also Flute 3)

2 Flutes

2 Oboes

English Horn (also Oboe 3)

2 Clarinets in B-flat/A

Bass Clarinet (also Clarinet in E-flat or Clarinet 3)

2 Bassoons

Contrabassoon (also Bassoon 3)

4 Horns in F

3 Trumpets in C

3 Trombones (2 tenor, 1 bass)

Tuba

Timpani (1 player)

Percussion (2-3 players)

Piano/Celesta (1 player)

1 Harp

16 Violin I

14 Violin II

12 Viola

10 Violoncello

8 Double Bass

Granted, this is a large orchestra today and many community orchestras can't supply triple woodwinds and 3 percussionists. But this is standard for the "big city" orchestras (NY Philharmonic, Boston Symphony etc.).

As for the music itself, I wasn't impressed. While it is a noble effort to go write a big orchestral piece, you aren't ready for it yet. The strings got too repetitive too quickly. By this I mean harmonically and rhythmically static. The same four-bar progression just is copy/pasted. There's also no real feel for line; it sounds like a jumbled mess to me rather than two coherent lines twisting and turning with each other and complimenting each other. It got a bit better once the winds came in though. However, the orchestration was very unbalanced. Almost consistently, the Flute would be unheard over the horn in its upper register which would have to strain to keep its volume down. Not an easy task above top-line F.

What I would encourage, rather than going straight for the top, a mistake that so many young people do (including myself!), is to start with something small. If you want multiple colors, try a woodwind quintet, or better yet, to work on counterpoint exclusively, write a string quartet, or piano piece where there is no color variation. Force yourself to work outside the bounds of having many different colors to choose from. Black and white can be just as beautiful as the most colorful painting if its executed right. Composing is very much like painting, only while the painter uses light on a plane of space, composers use sound on a plane of time.

Good luck and Happy Composing!

Agreeing that the string part got repetitive almost immediately. Try having the CB hold out long sustained notes that progress a bit, like start on tonic, move to supertonic, maybe go to dominant, I dunno - just some more large-scale bass movement to keep the interest up. Right now it feels like one weak theme being dropped into different timbres and stacked on top of each other. So, yeah, a jumbled mess.

Trumpets in C

I'd just like to point out that trumpet in C is not absolutely rigidly required. Stravinsky wrote the ballerina dance in Petrushka in Bb (not sure about he rest of it cause I haven't seen it yet). So was the 1st movement of Tan Dun's piece for the Youtube Symphony Orchestra (don't know if you've heard of it), and the Arrutunian Trumpet Concerto. Carmen was written for A trumpet and Tchaikovsky (and many other romantic compsers) wrote for A trumpet several times too. And all these examples are from within the last 200 years.

That said I think C would be better because the American standard is C trumpet (European orchestras may use a combination of Bb, C, and occasionally low F trumpets within the section but that is up to the players themselves to decide since professional trumpeters are expected to be more than decent at sight transposition)

Now about the music, you notated mourning in the beginning but, to me, it didn't sound very mournful. I can't really explain what it did sound like, but I feel that the dotted rhythms and the placement of the sixteenth notes make the piece sound a little too upbeat but yet weird. I think on a more basic level your dissonant chords are not jiving. IMO the way you wrote it makes the music sound loose and unfocused.

And that's about all my limited experience allows me to communicate in words. Good luck on your first symphony though. I've still yet to successfully write for larger than a brass quintet.

I'd just like to point out that trumpet in C is not absolutely rigidly required. Stravinsky wrote the ballerina dance in Petrushka in Bb (not sure about he rest of it cause I haven't seen it yet). So was the 1st movement of Tan Dun's piece for the Youtube Symphony Orchestra (don't know if you've heard of it), and the Arrutunian Trumpet Concerto. Carmen was written for A trumpet and Tchaikovsky (and many other romantic compsers) wrote for A trumpet several times too. And all these examples are from within the last 200 years.

That said I think C would be better because the American standard is C trumpet (European orchestras may use a combination of Bb, C, and occasionally low F trumpets within the section but that is up to the players themselves to decide since professional trumpeters are expected to be more than decent at sight transposition)

The keys of the trumpets have been standardized over the last 50 years or so to be C trumpets in orchestras. Obviously exceptions exist (such as the YouTube Symphony which used Bb Trumpets likely because it was intended for amateurs and professionals alike), but these are rare nowadays.

I've written stuff for C-trumpet and some trumpetists still preferred to play it on a Bb trumpet, transposing at sight. That's why I've often included parts for either Bb and C trumpet, letting the performers pick their preferred one themselves (not that I've written that much for trumpet though). That's also a practice I've seen in quite a few other pieces. Notate the score in concert pitch (which is becoming more and more common anyways), and provide different versions of the parts.

I really don't think it's -that- clear, even though a great lot of contemporary scores are written for trumpets in C (but -not- always played on them).

But yeah, usually I would also notate the trumpets in C in a score, so somewhat I concur with you.

How much orchestration do you know? Because a lot of "practical" rules of orchestral scores are being followed here. I'll point them out first:

I'm just composing for fun, I really don't expect it to be amazing, with my little knowledge of music, but I'm having fun and I think it sounds good, so whatever.

Score Order

While tempting to follow whatever Finale does or whatever order you want, there is a set order that has pretty much been standardized over the last 200 years. It goes thus:

Darn, I did percussion under strings again! I always do that D<

But does the trumpet thing really matter? I think I'll stick with Bb because that's what I'm use to.

Instrument Numbers

Did you just put one of everything? Or are there 40 flutes and 3 oboes and 165 Glockenspiels? Numbers of instruments are very important for the orchestra. Standard orchestras today would have something along the lines of this:

I'm just writing for one of each. This isn't proffesional, and if I had a second part for flute, it would be most likely the exact same for example.

As for the music itself, I wasn't impressed. While it is a noble effort to go write a big orchestral piece, you aren't ready for it yet. The strings got too repetitive too quickly. By this I mean harmonically and rhythmically static. The same four-bar progression just is copy/pasted. There's also no real feel for line; it sounds like a jumbled mess to me rather than two coherent lines twisting and turning with each other and complimenting each other. It got a bit better once the winds came in though. However, the orchestration was very unbalanced. Almost consistently, the Flute would be unheard over the horn in its upper register which would have to strain to keep its volume down. Not an easy task above top-line F.

Okay, this was what I was looking for, thanks for the comments. You and Dev both said the copy/paste rythm was bad, so I'll try and fix that (once I learn this 'harmonic progression' you all speak of XP)

What I would encourage, rather than going straight for the top, a mistake that so many young people do (including myself!), is to start with something small. If you want multiple colors, try a woodwind quintet, or better yet, to work on counterpoint exclusively, write a string quartet, or piano piece where there is no color variation. Force yourself to work outside the bounds of having many different colors to choose from. Black and white can be just as beautiful as the most colorful painting if its executed right. Composing is very much like painting, only while the painter uses light on a plane of space, composers use sound on a plane of time.

Good luck and Happy Composing!

I've been told this a lot, but I have much more fun writing for more than one group. As you said, it sounds better with more colors. Maybe I'll just not post my stuff for larger, and just do it as a side project. I'll do smaller works to get better, using different forms of harmony and whatnot,

Darn, I did percussion under strings again! I always do that D<

That's the way it is done in band scores (but in band scores you would also place the trumpets above the horns). But yeah, in orchestral music the percussion and harp is always above the strings.

But does the trumpet thing really matter? I think I'll stick with Bb because that's what I'm use to.

I think it is perfectly acceptable, especially in tonal music in a flat-based key, so definitely stick by it if you want. However, one thing to be aware of is that horns should always be written without key signatures and just with the appropriate accidentals before the notes (again with the exception of band scores and some film music, music written for school orchestras etc., where there are different practices). The same also applies in many scores to trumpets/cornets (but not to trombones and tuba), but this practice is far less consistent than for the horns. Many traditionally trained hornists aren't used to playing in keys at all and would actually much rather play a part in A or D or whatever, since that's the way all the traditional horn repertoire is notated, and thus the thing they are trained in (not that you should do that today).

I'm just writing for one of each. This isn't proffesional, and if I had a second part for flute, it would be most likely the exact same for example.

Oh, it is entirely professional to write for an orchestra with single winds. Today, that's actually a rather common setup for small chamber orchestras playing contemporary music, wanting to provide a wide range of colours without getting too big. It -is- however not common to write only a single part when you have more than one of each wind, again with exceptions in band music etc. This doesn't mean you can't have unisono passages, but it isn't typical for a whole piece, in orchestral music, since it is usually considered a "waste of potential" and you're losing much of the dynamic/timbral spectrum you could have available.

However, one thing to be aware of is that horns should always be written without key signatures and just with the appropriate accidentals before the notes. Many traditionally trained hornists aren't used to playing in keys at all and would actually much rather play a part in A or D or whatever, since that's the way all the traditional horn repertoire is notated, and thus the thing they are trained in (not that you should do that today).

Oh, it is entirely professional to write for an orchestra with single winds. Today, that's actually a rather common setup for small chamber orchestras playing contemporary music, wanting to provide a wide range of colours without getting too big. It -is- however not common to write only a single part when you have more than one of each wind, again with exceptions in band music etc. This doesn't mean you can't have unisono passages, but it isn't typical for a whole piece, in orchestral music, since it is usually considered a "waste of potential" and you're losing much of the dynamic/timbral spectrum you could have available.

That's the first time I've heard of the horn keyless, that's strange. I think I'll ignore it for now so my mind doesn't blow up, and because I'm not sure it's possible to change the key signature on just one instrument in finale (printmusic 2009) do you know how if it is?

And I would lose all of the potential if I wrote for more than one, which is why I'm avoiding it. Even violin 2 is gone, which is definatly not standard.

Thanks for your help :]

semi-wrong instruments order ..... why this keeps happening ? .....

I thought the correct order were something "well known" for everybody .... :hmmm: ....

Besides the masterclasses Qc wrote, (which are ok) we may add some very, very short easy guidelines about the layout in orchestral scores .... really short, ... easy fast to read .... or maybe a single page/image as an example ..... with "Just skip the instruments you don't use"

Finale has an orchestra preset that sets up everything in that order for you. It shows up in the score setup page. You just have to make sure that after you're done adding a taking out instruments that the score order is still set to orchestral and not custom, or concert band or something.

I see that you are already getting advise on the score so I'll go elsewhere. Nice job! There are some good ideas in your work here. I would like to advise you to vary it up. "But I did" you are probably thinking. Well, rhythmically it doesn't vary much if at all. It sounds like it is consisting of quarters and eighths. Nothing wrong with that but you might want to consider some contrasting material to go ALONG with it. Or maybe some syncopation. By the time you have the bassoon (i think) solo enter, the texture has not changed once. So, pla~y with your ideas a bit more. Sit down and vary it out. Syncopated, sparse, 16th note jibberish, anything. Brainstorm.