How to Notate Swung 16ths

Nah, you can't write it out - it changes as the phrase goes by. Most guys develop their own sense of time within the swing - I tend to straighten my 8ths as the phrase gets longer, other guys will start out straight but roll them more as they go by. There's a lot of push/pull within time

It's subtle, and to write it out you'd have to be double-dotting 32nds within triplets and other excruciatingly nitpicky notation (try hyperscribing in Finale and see how specific it gets with even 8ths! Now imagine getting precise with a Coleman Hawkins transcription)...

In the end, I prefer a slightly less rolled swing, (maybe, 30-35% "swing" in Finale playback) ... the more you roll it, the more "vanilla" and lame it sounds to me.

You explained this better to me than I think anyone else has ever explained it... and it makes a great deal of sense to me the way you did.

My interpretation of what you said... While it is a rhythmic device, the the more common purpose of "Swing" in music is as a method of rhythmic expression through thoughtful manipulation of symmetric and asymmetric subdivisions of the pulse. Is this more or less accurate?

I've always tried to think of swing as a 'simpler way to write rhythm' for reasons like saving ink and simplifying the reading experience for the performer, but I think you just turned on another light bulb in my brain, Jessome. Or maybe not, you tell me.

You explained this better to me than I think anyone else has ever explained it... and it makes a great deal of sense to me the way you did.

My interpretation of what you said... While it is a rhythmic device, the the more common purpose of "Swing" in music is as a method of rhythmic expression through thoughtful manipulation of symmetric and asymmetric subdivisions of the pulse. Is this more or less accurate?

I've always tried to think of swing as a 'simpler way to write rhythm' for reasons like saving ink and simplifying the reading experience for the performer, but I think you just turned on another light bulb in my brain, Jessome. Or maybe not, you tell me.

Your interpretation seems accurate. This isn't a chicken/egg issue... it's a square-peg/round-hole issue. ;) "To swing" is to phrase something in a "swingingful" manner. To notate something as "swung" isn't so much trying to codify a feeling or a style as it is trying to get the player to inject their own feel and style.

In more traditional "swinging" bands - think Basie - the trick was getting 17 cats to swing the same way!! This isn't acheived by any notational trickery, but by countless nights performing together, developing into a cohesive swing-machine, and getting on a bus to drive to the next gig.

The reason it's so hard to get younger or more inexperienced players to SWING is because the feel gets quantized into neat little boxes with triplets and accents. ...

Saving ink is one thing; simplifying the readability is another - but in the end, straight-8ths with an experienced player will roll sweeter than dotted-8th/16th will with anyone else.

I think that makes sense. ;)