miniature 2

A new piece based on a 12tone row, but still with tonal implications. This version is a draft. All critique is welcome, but especially on twelve tone technique. The row: D C# Bb A G F# E Eb C B Ab FEdit: score and mp3 updated (only minor edit)

miniature 2

I can't comment about the 12 tone, I haven't used things like that, I'm afraid I tent to follow feelings rather specific techniques (kinda old fashion), all I can say is that doesn't sound bad .

it feels very enigmatic, profund, but very short, what do you have planed to this ? why No.2 ? there will be more ? or a larger one ?

(For the high notes in piccolo you may use 8va----¬ lines)

(C.Basses, C.Fagot will be in transposed 8va later no ?)

It a score in c, so the piccolo, basses, c.bassoon (any transposing instrument for that matter) are written as they sound, stupid of me :)

I have another piece in the making, longer. So I'm possibly removing the name miniature, but this is likely to become the 2nd movement.

Thanks for listening, glad you liked it :D

EDIT: the new score is better, not in c anymore

I would expect more development for the initial and ending Brass motifs, but I don't know what structure you have in mind, just be patient and take your time to write this, sometimes we want to see it all finished soon and reduce the development and length.

The initial and ending brass figure is a part of the tonerow, D C# Bb A G F#, so in fact about everything is development of that section. Even the other 6 remaining notes of the tonerow sound alike (almost like a sequence)

The tonerow appears in 3 different forms. In ms 7-10 (cla. + pizz.) the row is stated. Accents are on the odd notes. In ms 11-13 (trp) the row is stated again, now with the even notes on the heavier beats of the measure.

In ms 14/5 the row is stated a 3rd time, now with accents on the first of a group of three notes. (1, 4, 7, 10th), thus revealing the circle of fifths, an important element of the functional harmony I used.

Sick piece. Not so into the ending, which is sudden, but not sudden enough to be a good sudden ending. You probably know that.

Harmony is nice, definitely doesn't sound 12-tone because of how much you repeat notes. You get a strong octatonic sound with that row, which is a nice sound.

It doesn't really flow well for me. The motive gets a little repetitive by the ending, and I think could be transformed to a greater degree--this would help clarify differences by which you're making a form.

I would suggest working in a less involved genre for your first 12-tone piece, solo piano or a small chamber group. It's enough to try to work in this style for the first time, without dealing with orchestration concerns as well.

John. Thanks for the thorough study you made of it :)

Is ms 29/30 you rightly spot that the notes Ab and F are the only ones I did not use. Originaly the rule is that all notes of the row must have sounded before you start it anew. But I want to use only *some* ideas from 12tone music in order to get a more economic use of material. Let me explain the missing Ab and F:

In ms 20 a section starts. The harmony is entirely based on the row. I pick notes 135 and 246 from the row as chords, the same happens the next measures, but starting at note 7. The same applies in ms 31, but The first half I start with note 3, others being 57 and then 468, and then the same starting at note 9, others being 11 and 1, and then 10,12,2.

I see you noticed this.

The trombone chordal section (ms26 and 37) uses the notes 147 and moving. Not like the section of ms 20 using the rest of the tonerow, but just moving, ms 26 = 147, ms 27 = 258, ms 28 = 369, ms 29 = 47 10. So this is why the Ab and the F are left out. :)

The same applies in ms 37, but starting with note 5, others being 8 and 11, and so on.

Funny thing of this row is that making chords leaving one out (135) results in a tertian harmony, and leaving two out results in something with a strongl quartal flavour (not always, as you can see in the trombone chordal section, like ms39)

I'm glad you spoted the harmonies of G F# G# F as having its base in the row. And you also right asume that ms 14, except for the 1st violins is not based on the row. It is here (ms 14) where the circle of fifths appears D A E B in the violin, not in ms 10 as you ask somewhere.

Funny you hear in ms 43 The chords of D and E. That is the way the tonerow was explored. But in 43 I liked to shed a new light on the material so f# and g# are intended. I like the tonal ambiguity of the row, and if you really percieve the passage as in D and E its ambiguity is even close to bitonal. This was what I wanted :)

Ms 51, the cello line, is rhythmically the augmentation of the figure of ms14, and it is the inversion as you had noticed. Originally the idea was to walk the circle of fifths again, but when I looked at ms 14 again I noticed the rhythmical emphasis of the fifths so there the idea was born for the inversion (I needed fifths down, where ms 14 is going up). This also reveals the reason behind the rhythm. The bass emphasize the fifths (indeed doubles the cello), and although it was the initial idea to do only fifths, the bass is the result of an orchestrational decision.

So your thorough review needed a lengthy answer. I usually hate walls of text, but your effort has to be reward.

I really appreciate it.

Last Life

Thanks for the remarks. I know it is not really flowing, is it only the silences (I like the empty measures) or is it more?

I really would appreciate if you could point where you think it gets boring after too much repeat.

About the ending, I slightly altered the orchestration of that and a little rhythmical alteration, that imo more clearly introduces the suddenness of the ending ;)

Maybe you read the discussion I am having with AntiA about formal structure in atonal music. Any thoughts from your side are mostly appreciated since I know little about that.

About your last suggestion: for the first time I made a piano draft before starting to write for orchestra. I really had never done that before. So I wonder why you think I should write for smaller ensembles. I can only assume that you have orchestrational remarks. If there are, I'd really love to hear them :)

Besides, this is not my first 12tone piece. There is the 3rd movement of my sax sonata, and I am currently working on about 3 or 4 pieces that contain the same ingredients: a tonerow but tonal.

lol, thanks for your comment nonetheless. I am thinking to add a fugue to this, and use this as a prelude...

Excuse me for not delving as deep into this piece as John.

I think you did a remarkable job, this sounds very far removed from any of the clichee kind of ideas you (rather, I) would associate with dodecaphony. You manage to genuinely create athmosphere here.

There were some parts I especially liked, for example m33 and m36 where the flute seems to be laggin behind the others, trying to keep up. It made me smile. :)

There were other parts though, which I liked somewhat less, for example m10-13. The trumpet part seems too exposed to me. I get that it is an important introduction of that particular motif, but the progression sounded too 12 tone-y to me compared to the rest of the piece. The violin bit after that did not feel so openly 12 tone-y (no gay pun intended). m51-58 were the same in that they sounded very tone row-y, slightly less because they were supported by the low strings, but still.

Maybe I should say it like this: I think that motif (if I may keep calling it that) works from a compositional point of view like a charm, but my ears don't seem to totally agree on the sound it creates. Ah well, I don't expect you to change it or anything, it might be just me needing to adjust to it. It could have been left unmentioned I suppose.

Another thing though I cannot leave unmentioned is the ending. It was, as opposed to the rest of the piece, something I really disliked. Too abrubt, and I don't see the reason why. I hope this was just a halt in the draft and not the actual draft for the ending. A powerfull ending like the opening is a good idea to wrap it up, but the music stops right in its track. I wanted to hear maybe 1 or 2 additional measures there.

I am eager to hear your fuge (and other pieces you are writing) after this :D

I am eager to hear your fuge (and other pieces you are writing) after this

ditto.

Ok, so how's this "12tone row" thing ? I may use it, like the dodecaphonism that you don't play the same not until you played the others ?

(I really compose by feeling, never used that kind of "rules" )

Sorry for the late reponse Daniel. But the twelve tone thing is indeed dodecaphonism. But a more free approach I think. You have to listen to Berg's violin concerto to get rid of the idea of rules as opposed to feeling. It was a real revelation to me, and opened a lot op possibilities I am exploring right now, this piece one of the first...

Currently I am working on a fugue for organ, so I am leaving this orchestral thing to rest, the orchestral fugue after this miniature (then probably renamed as prelude) might come one day...

You have to listen to Berg's violin concerto to get rid of the idea of rules as opposed to feeling.

I like that concert very much, actually I'm printing a lot of scores these days, I will print that concert tomorrow maybe, Then I check it :phones: