Counterpoint Question

So I've been trying to teach myself species counterpoint using this website. It's coming along pretty well. Anyways I'm nearing the 5th species, and I want to know how this all applies with more complex compositions? Whole, half and quarter notes work great for exercises, but eventually I'm going to want to write more complex things. Do the "rules" change at all when you start using 8ths and 16ths? Obviously major baroque figures like Bach used smaller note values than a quarter in his compositions, so how do the rules change?

Also, this site provides information on counterpuntal writing, but nothing on writing the melody/cantus firmus from what I can tell. Anyone know of any other resources that might be of help to me?

The rules change and the rules don't change.

These exercises you're doing are mainly for learning fundamentals and rules. You, as the composer, choose where to apply these rules and choose which of these rules to break.

I also suggest that you start branching out from basic species.

Edit : I see you're a Beethoven fan - Just look at any of his pieces. At times he follows rules explicitly and at others ignores them and does his own thing. His late quartets would be best to look at if you want examples. I'd suggest both his Op 130 in BbM (including Op 133) and his Op 132 in Am.. or his Op 111 sonata if you're an able pianist.

Oh, you better believe I'm going to break some rules. :P

But what I meant was that I'm confused on how the rules change if I use more complex rhythms than quarters and halves. I plan on following the rules for a while, just until I get the hang of them, then I'll start picking and choosing based on personal taste.

What do you suggest I do after species?

Basically, as you increase your texture more and more you involve far more passing notes. If you haven't gotten to these yet/are unsure as to what they are.. I suggest moving onto some modern (~18th century) 4-part harmony methods/studies and start looking at some early/rudimentary Bach pieces.

Whatever you choose or others recommend, I suggest moving on from Fux's methods if you feel you've got a fairly good grasp on them.

I've used many books for basic 4-part harmony studies but always returned to "First Year Harmony" by William Lovelock (this may be difficult to find today.. I would let you borrow mine but.. :P). This is the only text I used (aside from scores) for an entire year of private composition studies, it's an excellent book.

That said, if you're not with a tutor or institution (which I assume is the case) I would look for some e-books on the subject.. when/if you get a tutor/lecturer, they will have their own specific texts they teach by.

:)

The Fux method is a good method - and what I was using for your lessons. The key thing is to realize how each line works in relation/conjunction to one another. The Fux method's rules are perfect for that - but I feel to stringent (especially with the very open contrapuntal usage of most modern composers.)

..I feel too stringent (especially with the very open contrapuntal usage of most modern composers.)

This is true but don't look at modern techniques as the next step for you, Marius.. I don't advice jumping from Fux to modern counterpoint. Work your way up :)

This is true but don't look at modern techniques as the next step for you, Marius.. I don't advice jumping from Fux to modern counterpoint. Work your way up :)

I wasn't advising him to study more modern styles of counterpoint yet. Eventually he should, but he should do that at his own pace.

Here is a VERY good website by Belkin (I think he was QcCowboy's teacher) on counterpoint. I think it works very well.

https://www.webdepot.umontreal.ca/Usagers/belkina/MonDepotPublic/bk.C/index.html

But what I meant was that I'm confused on how the rules change if I use more complex rhythms than quarters and halves.

Contrapuntal techniques can be applied to more complex rhythms. When you start learning counterpoint on its own (especially from Fux) it might be hard to see how the techniques apply to the pieces you want to write. One trick is to make sure you understand nonharmonic tones, or ways of creating melodic motion in a tonal context. I don't have time right now to give examples on staff paper, but some terms to know are accented (occurring on the beat or on a strong beat), unaccented (occurring off the beat or on a weak beat), auxiliary tone, passing tone, neighbor tone, incomplete neighbor, double neighbor, anticipation (or portamento if you're working in a sixteenth century style), suspension, retardation, escape tone, pedal point or pedal tone, consonant leap, arpeggiation, appogiatura, enclosure, nota cambiata...

and if you wait...you will learn it in my course. haha!

Well I started on it with Jaws, but we had to end the lessons, so I started teaching myself. I think I'm pretty much done with species, I was just curious what I should move on to next.

Edit: Sounds good Aniolel! :D

I think I'm pretty much done with species, I was just curious what I should move on to next.

Something actually relevant to composing? In other words, who the fux cares about species counterpoint?

In what ways isn't it relevant? If you've moved through the expanded species, as well as third species, you should be writing smaller values, and of unequal durations.

Then, variations on species are variations on melody or rhythm. Counterpoint does not have to sound like a fugue, and I still think the technique is a must. As far as the rules are concerned, I don't use them :P Though understanding beat subdivisions helps writing multiple melodies/rhythms (for me).

In what ways isn't it relevant? If you've moved through the expanded species, as well as third species, you should be writing smaller values, and of unequal durations.

Then, variations on species are variations on melody or rhythm. Counterpoint does not have to sound like a fugue, and I still think the technique is a must. As far as the rules are concerned, I don't use them :P Though understanding beat subdivisions helps writing multiple melodies/rhythms (for me).

I'm showing my willful ignorance a bit. As you said yourself, you don't use the "rules;" what's the point in learning them?

Of course, knowing more is always better, but that's also to say you're never "done" with any concept. I dunno. I just... I get frustrated because I feel a lot of people read and write more than they listen. And that's an unfair statement, for sure, because I don't know anyone from Adam; but still....

Well, for starters why not listen at bartok's counterpoint in the Mikrokosims.