Writing For An Orchestra

OK, so I've been challenged by a friend with the task of writing a symphony...

However, I personally have a bit of difficulty with writing for larger orchestras (I tend to stick to solo pieces or choral works) and a lot of the instruments end up unused.

Has anyone got any advice on writing for larger groups, and particularly on avoiding simply moving in block chords (as I have had to resort to in previous attempts) or - the other extreme - sounding a mess because each instrument has it's own complex counterpoint?

Also, I'm new here so: Hello everyone! :)

This is a difficult question to answer. Can you tell us a bit more about yourself? How long have you written music? How well do you know each orchestral instrument? How long do you want this symphony to be?

I've been composing for a couple of years - I know quite a bit about the string section, and woodwind - brass stumps me a bit, and writing for harp feels very strange! I'm hoping to do 4 movements, for a total of 20-30 minutes, but if I can survive the first movement I reckon it'll be a lot easier from then!

Thanks Phil! I agree; I've had past compositions where I've tried having counterpoint with every single instrument at once; quite frankly it was a mess!

My main concern is with each of the instrument's capabilities - obviously most of the writing won't be idiomatic (I'm not sure anyone can claim to play EVERY orchestral instrument there is...) and so I want to avoid composing something too easy or, indeed, completely impossible for the musician!

Sort of adds on to what phil has said. Its no different to anything else.

You say you have done choral writing? Why don't you apply that technique to a theme or movement? Could work well in a slow movement... could work well in an quick one... who knows!

Get listening to orchestral works, get books on orchestration, get scores, analyse other people's works etc. If you want to take on your friends challenge make sure you create something that will make them step back in awe!

There are plenty of examples of orchestral writing here which you can learn from http://www.classicalmidiconnection.com/

Thank you all - I've found a book online about scoring for different instruments ( http://archive.org/s...ge/n18/mode/1up ), and I've been listening to the pieces on the site Ryan suggested;

I'm starting to get an idea of how it could all work - thank you very much!

[edit] Is it permissible to add a 3rd and 4th violin , so as to have four violin sections, each playing divisi for a total of eight parts? (I'm attempting a large cluster chord a la Eric Whitacre - one of my favourite composers)

The lower strings (including viola) are already being used, so I guess in effect it will be a 12 part chord (the contrabass double stopping)

Knowing the function of each family of instruments is helpful...rather than writing a counterpoint for the full orchestra, you can use them all at the same time in different ways...I remember reading somewhere that the ear can follow three ideas at once...A simple reduction of that could be writing Rhythm, accompaniment, and melody (counterpoint); using those three things in different colorings...switching it up every beat, or let that particular coloring hang for some time, that's up to you.

If you don't know how to do it, you shouldn't be doing it.

Then how're you supposed to get better at it? I'm gonna at least give it a go; there's a first time for everything!

Then how're you supposed to get better at it? I'm gonna at least give it a go; there's a first time for everything!

There is a first thing for everything indeed. Start with learning the meaning of the word divisi. No need for a 3rd or 4th violin section. And you know double stops?

I know Dom doesnt seem that cooperative, but really this is rather basic. So he has a point. "If you don't know how to do it, you shouldn't be doing it."

You have been given advise to read scores and learn from them. If you are looking for some effect you also could go and get that score and look how they did is.

This is an helping community, but don't expect us to write your piece for you.

They are already playing divisi; two parts per stave - having four parts on the one stave would get really confusing.

I tried doing it double stopped, and the same thing happened - the score got cluttered and it was difficult to read.

I'm not asking anyone to write it for me - I just don't want to get tangled in the logistics or find I've written parts that aren't well suited to the instruments

[edit] I think I've got round this by arranging the score so there are 2 staves for violin 1, and two staves for violin 2, each divisi, allowing me to get the full chord - which will hopefully mean not having to add extra violin sections

[edit] I think I've got round this by arranging the score so there are 2 staves for violin 1, and two staves for violin 2, each divisi, allowing me to get the full chord - which will hopefully mean not having to add extra violin sections

That would be my bet too.

Sorry if my post was too harsh ;)

First of all, hi and welcome.

If you don't know the ranges and registral characteristics of various instruments, you're done for before you even begin. If you know the strings and woodwinds, stick with them and maybe add a couple of horns or trumpets. At this stage, less is probably a better idea.

Of course, picking up some orchestration books is the best thing to do, but I got the impression you were under some haste to get this done. There are some in the public domain if you don't want to buy the newer ones.

I think one of the biggest lessons you can learn is that not every instrument has to play all the time. I mean, there are those jokes about how the bass drum only has one note after a quadrillion rests, but that's because that's the only time the composer felt the bass drum was needed.

The beauty about writing for an orchestra is that you can use as much sound or as little sound as possible, and the most you can put that accessibility to use the more you can really create an effective sound. Sometimes all you need is a bassoon solo accompanied by glockenspiel, or to contrast the entire brass section echoed by the strings and woodwinds. Orchestra = flexibility! A composer once told me that they knew an orchestra piece was amazing because they saw so much white on the page instead of a bunch of clusters of notes in each instrument line.

Good luck! I can leave more advice in the future. :)

I'm also in the process of learning to write for an orchestra. Heh, heh...I'm cheating though. Some of the orchestra libraries that doth exist don't allow you to play out of an instrument's range. Isn't that nice?!

You can start by writing everything out on piano first, then orchestrate it; many excellent composers (Grieg and Stravinsky come to mind) have done this.

Alternately, you can put each orchestral section on a separate staff, in which case you'll only have four or five lines to think about at once instead of thirty. I find writing directly on an orchestral score gives me horrendous option anxiety ("ooh, I'm going to make the clarinets play something - no, let's use the oboes - wait, what on earth are they going to play - ooh, flutes!").

I find planning ahead is more essential in orchestral music than it is in chamber music. Sketch out where your ideas are going to go in advance so you don't get bogged down in which instrument is going to do what.

Welcome aboard. Orchestration is a rather tricky compositional skill to learn. My suggestion for you is: learn to write in 4-p harmony first. This way you can learn how to for more than one part and know how to handle different ranges. After that, learn counterpoint. Counterpoint helps us to create interacting lines and themes. Next, Then, study orchestration with a great text and excellent scores. Score study means this: taking a orchestral and listening to it and following along, making arranging from it.(piano reduction from orchestral scores and orchestrated piano scores, or arranging for what ever you what it do be). And then: just practice writing for the orchestra.

Google orchestration texts and orchestral scores. and best of yuck. :)

hello all :) i have enjoyed reading this thread, if you do want any helpful advice on writing for an orchestra i know something that can help, ive been studying music composition using a book written by a really talented composer, heres a link to his facebook page-

http://www.facebook.com/Thecomposerarranger

hope this helps!