Hardest Orchestra piece?

What do you think is the most difficult piece for full orchestra in the standard repetoire? The piece would have to have everthing, including a hefty length, gigantic orchestration, displays of fiery virtuosity, and also moments of profound gentleness requiring the utmost attention to muscianship from all the players.

There are probably a lot of pieces that fit this category, but my vote goes for the ballet Daphnis et Chloe (not the suites, the full length ballet) by Ravel. Just hearing it and following the score tells me it must be a nightmare to play and prepare - but extordinarily fun to listen to!

I don't think the hardest orchestra piece necessarily needs to call for gigantic orchestration. IMHO, Stravinsky's Firebird Suite is the most difficult piece I know of for an orchestra to play. The virtuosity required of every single musician in the orchestra in the Infernal Dance is ridiculous.

Interesting, I had not thought of the Firebird - I don't have the music, but it does sound extremely difficult. Oh, and all I meant by gigantic orchestration is that it calls for a large orchestra - I should have just said 'large orchestra'. Daphnis really has the same orchestration as Firebird, except Daphnis also has a wind machine and a wordless chorus.

But I would have to say that technically, the complete Firebird ballet is harder than the Firebird Suite. I really much prefer to listen to the whole ballet (which is quite long) than the suite, I can get so much more enjoyment from it - plus the ballet has all of the music from the suite and a lot more that is also difficult.

any Mahler symphonies, Schubert's symphony #9 last movement allegro vivace, pretty difficult for the string players

I'd have to say Schoenberg's Five Pieces for Orchestra or Pelleas Und Melisande. Although Five pieces isn't to lengthy the players have to be EXTREMELEY sensitive and have total understanding of the beat and feel of the music to perform it correctly.

Or Elliot Carters Three occassions, Professionals actually have to practice that piece.

I've played several of the pieces mentioned here, and I have sung Daphnis and Chloe - insanely difficult for everyone concerned, but worth it in the end.

The single most technically difficult piece I've ever had to play so far in an orchestra, hands down, was "L'Apprenti Sourcier" by Paul Dukas.

I don't think that the Firedbird Suite is near as difficult as others... of course it is tough, but if my high school was able to play it very well last year, I wouldn't think it to be too difficult. I think that a ver difficult one however, is Mussoursgky's Night On Bald Mountain... if you listen to the tempo it's supposed to be at, well, I'll put it this way: It's insane.

Yeah...I've played three movements of the 1919 in two different ensembles and they were all right really. Tricky in places (* coughs * Infernal Dance * coughs *), but not difficult to follow, at least.

I was going to say the hardest piece I've ever played tried to play was 'The Moldau' but then, I doubt the rest of the orchestra would agree with me. Ah well.

Having played both the Firebird and "Die Moldau", on viola, I'd say the Firebird Suite was far more difficult.

But then I also find a lot of things in string playing difficult that others seem to have no problem at all with, and find some things easy that most string players struggle with...

It could just have been that I was quite a bit younger when trying to play 'The Moldau', come to think of it...

I played Smetana's "The Moldau" (again) last night with the San Fernando Valley Symphony, and I'd forgotten how hard some if that is. The diminished arpeggios in the "Stromschnellen" section are almost silly. It's a very satisfying piece to play, though, even with those two trite chords at the end (what was he thinking?).

Actually, everything we played in last night's concert was tricky. We started with "The Moldau," rounded out the first half with Gershwin's "An American in Paris" - surprisingly tricky here and there, and not especially idiomatic for the viola - and then for the second half finished up with Ravel's brilliant orchestration of Moussorgsky's "Pictures at an Exhibition" - again, rather tricky in spots. Not a terribly long program, but a satisfying one that the audience and players enjoyed alike.

I'm not sure if tricky is hard.But could you feel the ground shake in The Great Gate of Kiev?

Only during the performance, when everything just magically came together. As late as dress rehearsal, the conductor was trying in vain to get the brass to play the "Catacombae" section with the right depth, and the percussion to play "Great Gate of Kiev" properly. We figured it would probably all come together - or not - and it did, in the moment.

And, yes, perhaps tricky isn't difficult. When about a third of the orchestra is made up of amateurs, it can seem that way.

Once upon a time it was Berlioz's Queen 'ab scherzo (how appropriate), but that's probably no longer true. For things actually in the fairly general repertoire, as opposed to, say, Sch

I'm not sure if anyone mentioned - Berlioz' - Symphony Fantastiq

Strauss' - Heroe's life / Zaratustra

I'm surprised no one has yet mentioned Bartok's Concerto For Orchestra. That piece was written deliberately to tax the orchestra to its limits.

Night on Bare Mountain isn't that bad. Just a whole load of counting. Pictures at the Exhibition - now that can be a pain.

The worst one for me (I'm practising at the moment), is Rimsky-Korsakov's Suite from Tsar Saltan. The second movement is really, really difficult for strings. Constant semiquavers that are IMPOSSIBLE to play on the double basses and quite difficult to play on cello. If you get to listen to it, take a minute to think of the amount of blistered fingers there were after the performance ... :)

I have to say, Higdon's Concerto for Orchestra (which I seem to be talking about a lot) is insanely difficult. It demands huge virtuosity from both principals and sections - including a movement for percussion that is nuts - with bowed vibraphones and everything. My conservatory orchestra had a hard time with it with 8 percussionists, while the recording that's out now uses only 4 - it's NUTs. Like I said.

Tricky-wise, I'd say Adams' The Chairman Dances. THey shift time a whole lot and everything.

Ravel's Requiem (cf. the Dies Irae)... not so easy!