Thinking in keys...

What do you think of when you think of keys? I know for quite a few of them I have certain images that jump to mind... I'll just go down a list...

C - Am

G - Em

D - Bm

A - F#m

E - C#m

B - G#m

etc. etc...

I know G minor always seems to me to be a slow, dark, clouded key... C minor has always seemed like a powerful dramatic key... Probably influence of Beethoven...

D major always seemed a dancey... Like a folk song... As did B-flat... D-flat seemed like a mellow, slow piece... Probably influence of Chopin...

I could probably go through them all, but I wanna hear what influenced you to think in keys... Or if I'm the only one and just nuts. ;)

- Leon

These stick out to me...

C major - powerful, heroic

G major - elegant

F major - mellow

D major - folksy, dancing

Bb major - galloping

Gb major - flowing (but moving quickly!), relaxing

B major - bright, sunny

Ab major - majestic

D minor - elegant, dancing, least dark of the minor keys

C minor - powerful and dramatic

F minor - very powerful/dramatic, gloomy

G minor - urgent, frantic

E minor - elegiac, introspective

The only think I think is C major as being too over used and bland.

Aren't your pianos egal tempered ??? If you where using unegal temperements you could hear differences of colors in the keys... but physically (according to the physic) I really can't see how - except by faith - you can hear differences in keys. :toothygrin:

(ehehe... you'll learn to know my humor when I talk about these topics)

I really can't see how - except by faith - you can hear differences in keys. :toothygrin:

Hehe, it's actually easy. I personally love the sound of Bb minor, and F# major just feels weird to me.

Hmmm... I beleive you, but still... how can you here any difference between the half-tones if they are all egal ?! When Rameau (17e-18e) wrote is key impressions and definitions it was understandable that keys had different 'colors' for the intervals where not exactly the same which created different vibrations between the different intervals.

The only idea I have about this would be either because of the register of the instruments used... or because you got perfect pitch and have a spontaneous knowledge of the frequencies you hear and developped an association of tonal 'colors' with it.

Anybody have any rational explanation to this !? Have faith if you wish... but don't tell me egal tones can create a variety of 'colors' or 'characters'... I really can't understand why it could.

My best explanation is that I'm a string player, and thus hear three effects on a string instrument:

1) Strings aren't limited to the keys available on a piano - enharmonics are NOT equivalent on strings, as the leading tone is raised a little, and in general flats are played slightly lower than the enharmonic sharps. Strings are also tuned in exact fifths, not by equal temperament.

2) Resonance and sympathetic vibrations. Strings that are not being played may vibrate sympathetically with overtones, and also the front and back plates of a string instrument are tuned to specific frequencies. (The front plate of a violin, for example, resonates to whatever was the commonly-used F# at the time the violin was made.)

3) Register effects, as you pointed out.

Having played brass, I know that there are similar effects with brass harmonics.

This sounds sort of like Synaesthesia. I've never really pictured anything that strongly with keys in music...though I've gotten some subtle hints that Eb minor is very clouded and dampened, while Ab major stands out and rings true. Though I think different types of scales and modes affect me better. Octotonic scale feels cramped, while Dorian mode feels ancient and almost otherworldly.

My best explanation is that I'm a string player, and thus hear three effects on a string instrument:

AH ! There it is. I completly agree with you then ! Sorry... I was on a piano discussion forum before and that kind of comments made me laught. But you're totaly right that at any non-egal tempered instrument there is OF COURSE differences !

About the modes... I also agree that modes changes of mood and gives feelings than might differ slightly from one person to the other... a large part of my musical studies are based on this ! eheh (I really would be dishonest to say the contrary). But we where talking of transpositions in different keys here as I can see it.

Aren't your pianos egal tempered ??? If you where using unegal temperements you could hear differences of colors in the keys... but physically (according to the physic) I really can't see how - except by faith - you can hear differences in keys. :thumbsup:

(ehehe... you'll learn to know my humor when I talk about these topics)

Humor it might be but...so what if it's faith or perception? Keys cast different moods. Life without magic? No thanks. Jeeez!

To Montpellier :

No, no... I absolutly beleive in magic ! eheh... I was being douptful about people telling that there is different moods to keys in egal temperament and only. Of course if you're not in egal temperaments the intervals aren't egal and thus create 'different moods' !!

But to the answer the 'so what if it's faith or perception?'... okay if you wish. I was talking physically... of course... magic goes against physics ! I at the very least agree on that !

To Montpellier :

No, no... I absolutly beleive in magic ! eheh... I was being douptful about people telling that there is different moods to keys in egal temperament and only. Of course if you're not in egal temperaments the intervals aren't egal and thus create 'different moods' !!

But to the answer the 'so what if it's faith or perception?'... okay if you wish. I was talking physically... of course... magic goes against physics ! I at the very least agree on that !

Hearing a difference in keys is no different than perfect pitch hearing a difference in notes. It's easy, if you have the ability.

To me, when i think of C major and Eb major, i think of heroism and majesty. For example, the 1812 Overture by Peter Tchaikovsky is a song in Eb. My second symphony has a finale in c major even though its title is "Symphony No. 2 in D-flat" That has a very majestic sound. Lots of trumpet and french horn. D major has always sounded like a french dance. Ab is kinda jazzy. Cb and C# are both the most annoying keys to have ever been invented.

Dunael - I just made this topic because sometimes I feel a certain mood attached to keys... Most of the time it's probably inspired by other music I hear, like alot of Beethoven is powerful in C Minor, so that's pretty much what I think of when I hear it... It's just feelings that get kinda subconsciously added to certain things. Technically, no, there's no difference in playing something from D to D-flat, but for strange reasons, but for strange little feelings in my head, it's not as dancy.

Just strange subconscious feelings is all I'm talking about here. ^_^

- Leon

Oh, and the greatest, most relaxing chord is a BM9 spelled B2, F#3, B3, C#4, D#4, F#4, A#4. I could listen to that all day.

To Leon :

Yeah, that's a nice topic, don't worry ! ;) I like to argue... that's the way I learn !!

But for PianoManGidle :

Nice, but we are talking about keys not chords here ! eheh Of course, I agree that different chords give different sonorities !... no question from anyone about that I guess... :P

To Leon :

I like to argue... that's the way I learn !!

Cool, someone else who thinks like me.

JohnGalt, teach me your secret ways of knowing-it-all-fu :happytears:

:laugh: I must be tired...

JohnGalt, teach me your secret ways of knowing-it-all-fu :happytears:

Hehe. I'm training diligently in my Know-A-Whole-Bunch-Of-Stuff-That-Is-Only-Useful-In-A-Few-Instancesese.

LOL... that's great! ahah

TO BOB... by the way I answered in one of your serious discussion topic in case you didn't notice.

Keys? it's so important ?

Your feel for different keys could also possibly have something to do with ergonomics.

That is to say, the way you play your instrument(yuk yuk yuk) has an effect on how you listen to music. Certain figures/motivs might fit under your fingers better in certain keys resulting in your perception of certain keys having a particular "color". That's the way it works for me. I'm a slave to my piano.

For what it's worth, my best explanation for the survival of key symbolism to this day, despite the demise of the unequal keyboard tuning systems on which the very notion is based in the first place, is our unconscious association to all the music we've previously heard. F major sounds pastoral to the modern musician not because of some inherent quality in the key itself (unless he is playing an unequally tempered keyboard or fretted instrument) but because of all the pastoral F major music he has heard in the past, the experience of which is linked to his perception of the key itself.

Looking at the lists people have posted here, I notice they agree rather well with the qualities traditionally assigned to the keys based on how they sounded in various well temperaments. If the associations were real sensations caused by the objectively different "colours" of different absolute pitches (as I've heard some people with perfect pitch describe it), this correlation wouldn't exist. Thus, I can only ascribe it to association. Key symbolism arose because the keys really sounded different on keyboard instruments (if tuned to a non-meantone temperament), but it survives solely thanks to our experience with the music of the past.

Good thoughts there, but you're being very keyboard-centric. Keep in mind that string and brass instruments both DO NOT normally play equal-tempered scales. With string instruments, enharmonics are not identical. I'd argue here that the associations survive because string players continue to play to the key the music is written in.

I'm being keyboard-centric because keyboard instruments (along with harps and to some extent fretted instruments) are the only instruments where keys truly have different qualities. String players do not play equal-tempered scales, that is true, but they do not play different scales for different keys. Regardless of what key he is playing in, the string player always tries to intone as well as possible. This means that, for string instruments, there is no inherent difference, intonation-wise, between one key and another. You argue that with string instruments, enharmonics are not identical; however, the very reason for keys having such different expressive qualities on a well-tempered keyboard instrument is the fact that one needs to make compromises between enharmonics. If you can play G# where you need G# and Ab where you need Ab, then there's no need to intone differently in different keys, hence no difference between keys, and hence no key symbolism.

Based on my experience with the very precise differences between individual keys that well-tempered keyboard instruments can produce, I'm convinced that this is a sufficient explanation of the origin of key symbolism. I'm not yet convinced, though, that string instruments inherently suggest similar differences which could alone cause such a highly developed sense of precisely which Affekt belonged to which key as we see in writings on the subject. For that reason, I'm afraid I cannot let go of my keyboard-centricity.