String Quartet ?

I'm attempting to write a string quartet piece, but I've hit a wall. I've written two sections that I like individually, but I'm having some trouble connecting them.

- Not sure how to write for viola (learning how to read alto clef as I'm working on this piece)

- I tried to harmonize the parts with just the two violins kind of contrapuntally instead of thinking about chords, but at cadence points, I used suspensions and thought about those sections more chordal if that makes sense

I'd love to hear any feedback on what I have so far and any suggestions for other sections/connecting what I have. Thx in advance

The first things that I noticed when I looked at/listened to your piece:

1. The Violins' lowest note is a G and can't play the Gb's and F's you have written throughout
2. A string quartet is usually composed of 2 Violins, a Viola and Cello, not a Contrabass like you have here, which makes your piece sound bottom heavy although if this is guided by an artistic choice, no problem
3. Musescore 4 with Musesounds could offer a far superior quality of sound than this (imo) coarse and harsh rendition

The music itself shows some promise, although I question the necessity of the 9/8 meter as it just sounds mostly like it's in 4/4 but with an added 8th note - it doesn't sound like it's actually in compound time the way the strong-sounding beats are implied/distributed.  Thanks for sharing!

G'day,

Nice work so far, a few points:

1. As Peter has already pointed out, the lowest note a violin can play is G3 (the g directly below middle C).
2. I think you should change the key from Dflat major to D major or another string friendly key. As a string player who hates Sight Reading (there are loads of us) five flats is a nightmare to look at. Also, D major is a lot more resonant on string instruments.
3. Some slurring directions (e.g. Violin I, Bar Five) are unplayable. In string music, slurs represent bowing. I wish good luck to any string player trying to play that passage in one bow. 

Other than the above criticism, this work is going well. Hope to see the finished product.

Nga Mihi

Arjuna

Hi @GospelPiano12,

I am not going to repeat what Peter and Arjuna said as they are very useful advice.

If it's 9/8 at the opening the tempo marking should use a dotted crotchet instead of a crotchet for measurement.

I don't think you have to change the key signature since Db major returns shortly.

Other markings like dynmaic and tempo marking can be added too, but I think you will add them anyway so no problems here.

55 minutes ago, expert21 said:

I think you should change the key from Dflat major to D major or another string friendly key. As a string player who hates Sight Reading (there are loads of us) five flats is a nightmare to look at. Also, D major is a lot more resonant on string instruments.

Well Arjuna you will hate my finished Sextet as it's in Gb major with 6 flats.....

Thanks for sharing!

Henry

Quote

Well Arjuna you will hate my finished Sextet as it's in Gb major with 6 flats.....

Six Flats....? *Dies of Sight Reading Phobia*

No point in me adding to what others have said. Probably best if you studied the basics of the instruments themselves (Wiki would give enough information) and the scores of a few quartets in keys - Beethoven Op 18 should be easy enough if you plan to write in keys. Extreme flat keys aren't good for technical reasons: in G flat, the nearest tonic is on the D string for a start. In C flat, that would be the nearest dominant. Move the key up to G or C.

Great that you're starting" to think "String Quartet" but always learn about the medium and instruments along side. 

Hi! I have a few suggestions :

1. If you use a 9/8 indicator it has sound like that! Maybe, a bass that marks the three pulses (as in waltzes) would be a good a idea. [Check La Valse - Ravel: Holberg's Suite Sarabande- Grieg]

2. The tuning of keys in strings is different from pianos, in piano it doesn't matter if we are playing in C major or Eb minor because all sounds the same, but this is not true when we are speaking about strings. Violin has 4 strings: E, A, D, G; those strings sound more brilliant when they are not pressed, in Bb minor E, A and G are flattened so we use just pressed notes (i'm really trying to express myself in another language, i'm doing my best i swear, if you dont understand me pls tell me), that makes the sound more dark and weak (also its very hard to play correctly) [check edward grieg op. 27 no. 1, look that in the first chord a lot of notes are open strings][compare it with Tchaïkovski Op.48, no note is an open string and it sounds softer and weaker] Usually, string composers dont use more than 3 flats/sharps.

3. If you want a passage to sound 'violinesque' you have to use the E string, the second melody in bars 1 -7 (violin II) will sound better if it is played by a viola, as the violist will use the G string which is very present in viola repertoire and is characteristic of that instrument [check hindemith's viola sonatas] 

4. b12-13, parallel octaves between db and viola, also, i miss the c in the bass

5. If you use a db, you have to use a cello, if not, the pitch of the instruments are not balanced.

6. To sound more impressionistic or more alike to debussy's music, avoid V-I progressions, also it sounds pretty contemporain (i dont know if thats intended, cool if thats the case) [check ravels mallarme poems, look at cadences] [check la fille aux cheveux de lin, b2-3, its a plagal cadence, b9-10, look at the V chord, it has no leading tone!]

I hope this helped you! 

- Samuel

7 hours ago, Samuel_vangogh said:

Hi! I have a few suggestions :

1. If you use a 9/8 indicator it has sound like that! Maybe, a bass that marks the three pulses (as in waltzes) would be a good a idea. [Check La Valse - Ravel: Holberg's Suite Sarabande- Grieg]

2. The tuning of keys in strings is different from pianos, in piano it doesn't matter if we are playing in C major or Eb minor because all sounds the same, but this is not true when we are speaking about strings. Violin has 4 strings: E, A, D, G; those strings sound more brilliant when they are not pressed, in Bb minor E, A and G are flattened so we use just pressed notes (i'm really trying to express myself in another language, i'm doing my best i swear, if you dont understand me pls tell me), that makes the sound more dark and weak (also its very hard to play correctly) [check edward grieg op. 27 no. 1, look that in the first chord a lot of notes are open strings][compare it with Tchaïkovski Op.48, no note is an open string and it sounds softer and weaker] Usually, string composers dont use more than 3 flats/sharps.

3. If you want a passage to sound 'violinesque' you have to use the E string, the second melody in bars 1 -7 (violin II) will sound better if it is played by a viola, as the violist will use the G string which is very present in viola repertoire and is characteristic of that instrument [check hindemith's viola sonatas] 

4. b12-13, parallel octaves between db and viola, also, i miss the c in the bass

5. If you use a db, you have to use a cello, if not, the pitch of the instruments are not balanced.

6. To sound more impressionistic or more alike to debussy's music, avoid V-I progressions, also it sounds pretty contemporain (i dont know if thats intended, cool if thats the case) [check ravels mallarme poems, look at cadences] [check la fille aux cheveux de lin, b2-3, its a plagal cadence, b9-10, look at the V chord, it has no leading tone!]

 

I hope this helped you! 

- Samuel

 

Thank you, these suggestions are EXTREMELY helpful. I have a few friends who are music majors with a string concentration and the first thing they told me was that they HATE flat keys on stringed instruments. So I've caused the piece to D Major instead and moved my original violin 2 line to the viola part. I'll keep working on it and post progress updates for feedback. I think I have enough to work on now, thanks for your comments. 

On 5/1/2023 at 5:48 PM, Samuel_vangogh said:

5. If you use a db, you have to use a cello, if not, the pitch of the instruments are not balanced.

That's a fair point but professional and good amateur players would be able to 'stage manage' balance.  I'm a supporter of double passes having independence in ensembles. In our local orchestra (which is chamber-sized) before covid lockdown, we have/had a bassist who often used a cello bow to lighten the weight of the sound.

On 5/6/2023 at 10:07 AM, Quinn said:

That's a fair point but professional and good amateur players would be able to 'stage manage' balance.  I'm a supporter of double passes having independence in ensembles. In our local orchestra (which is chamber-sized) before covid lockdown, we have/had a bassist who often used a cello bow to lighten the weight of the sound.

 

Is there anyway someone can look over my score and let me know where I need to adjust things for bowing? 

Can I make it a quintet and have both the contrabass and the cello? And just have them double the octave 

So, bowing works as legatos in piano but here a few sugestiones

- Don't do legatos longer than 1 bar, please, just for the sake of the player

- Anacrusis are done with upbow (V)

- Downbows (N) sound usually stronger, importante notes should he Downbow

- this is a personal opinion but I think that the rythmical group Quarter-Eighth-Eighth-Eighth should he just one bow

- Everyone should (most parte of the time and in important notes) do the same bow. For examen b.9 doesnt make sense, violín I and II do diferent bows but they have the same rythm

Also:

- look at db registre and repertoire to see how articulations are done (the most famous piece may be the Elephant from Camille Saint-Saëns) 

- if you use a db, the violín registre should be higher

Check:  study of orchestration [Adler], section dedicated to strings

43 minutes ago, Samuel_vangogh said:

Check:  study of orchestration [Adler], section dedicated to strings

Great book, undoubtedly.
 

43 minutes ago, Samuel_vangogh said:

Don't do legatos longer than 1 bar, please, just for the sake of the player

Would you say this also can depend on the length of the phrase/semi-phrase/motive in absolute time? I imagine that faster tempo passages in signatures like 3/8 or 2/4 may allow this without complicating performer's life too much, is this correct? Thanks in advance.

 

On 5/1/2023 at 4:24 AM, GospelPiano12 said:

- Not sure how to write for viola (learning how to read alto clef as I'm working on this piece)

Well I can only imagine your tenth piece of this kind will be great if this is your first approach. I can only insist on what Samuel, Peter and the guys have said and encourage you to keep working on this!

Additionally, regarding the material itself, mind parallel movement of the violins. Also, the keys you chose are near from each other, so if you are really clueless in regards of joining these two sections, what about thinking on an harmonic progression that convinced you first?

A super nit-picky thing though, please do mind redundant/uncompressed silences like the one in the Violin II, M1. This is harmless, but if the score goes on and uncompressed silences appear often you would be adding unnecessary symbols most of the times that could potentially hinder readability.

Kind regards,
Daniel–Ømicrón.

39 minutes ago, Omicronrg9 said:

Would you say this also can depend on the length of the phrase/semi-phrase/motive in absolute time? I imagine that faster tempo passages in signatures like 3/8 or 2/4 may allow this without complicating performer's life too much, is this correct? Thanks in advance.

If you do so, just make sure that there are no changes in the string that sounds(or just a few changes that are not near from others) [Hindemith Op. 11 no 4, about 0:53, a fast passage but everything played is on the c string]

On 5/7/2023 at 4:25 PM, Samuel_vangogh said:

Everyone should (most parte of the time and in important notes) do the same bow. For examen b.9 doesnt make sense, violín I and II do diferent bows but they have the same rythm

Could you make some annotations on the score so I can see it?

On 5/7/2023 at 4:25 PM, Samuel_vangogh said:

if you use a db, the violín registre should be higher

I will adjust that

On 5/7/2023 at 5:23 PM, Omicronrg9 said:

Additionally, regarding the material itself, mind parallel movement of the violins. Also, the keys you chose are near from each other, so if you are really clueless in regards of joining these two sections, what about thinking on an harmonic progression that convinced you first?

I didn't really have a progression in mind, I had a melody and just went from there

I may use a descending chromatic scale to bring it back into the first theme, but not settled on that yet.

On 5/7/2023 at 5:23 PM, Omicronrg9 said:

A super nit-picky thing though, please do mind redundant/uncompressed silences like the one in the Violin II, M1. This is harmless, but if the score goes on and uncompressed silences appear often you would be adding unnecessary symbols most of the times that could potentially hinder readability.

I will keep this in mind. So you're saying I should fill these silences with something? I could add a harmony note and just have a piano dynamic so that it lets the melody shine through. I like that idea, thanks

While playing, players may change some bows so It fits more their manner of playing

*1. Bar2, I dont remember why i wrote thiss annotation 

9 hours ago, Samuel_vangogh said:

While playing, players may change some bows so It fits more their manner of playing

*1. Bar2, I dont remember why i wrote thiss annotation 

 

Are the markings in measure 9 slurs? And what do the numbers mean?

Digitation, search about position shifting in violin

That bowing is not that good. 

Ive attached what I'd do below. You should also remove that long slur over barlines in bars nine to ten as that is unplayable in a single bow and the effect wouldnt be pleasant.

14 hours ago, expert21 said:

That bowing is not that good. 

 

Ive attached what I'd do below. You should also remove that long slur over barlines in bars nine to ten as that is unplayable in a single bow and the effect wouldnt be pleasant.

 

PDF

• Bowing (1) (1)

Okay, I'll adjust them

Took a long break from the piece, and decided on writing 3 other sections, one after what I've already shared, a melody similar to the beginning with some chromatic notes and then just a repeat of the beginning melody, and then the beginning to a contrasting section in 4/4 that's more lyrical. 

Having some trouble with making the piece sound connected and fluid...

Hey @GospelPiano12,

-I like in b.6 when you are using that hemiola within a hemiola itself when the 9/8 time is changed to 3/4 AND THEN within the 3/4 there's a hemiola. Very interesting rhythm here.

-I feel like the modulation in b.8 unnecessary as it doesn't last long and it's not very remote. 

-The b.14 F double sharp can be noted as a G natural instead

-Will b.23-24 the space too compact? The viola and 2nd violin is almost fighting for their living space there

-I like that half diminished chord in b.26!

-I feel like from b.31 to 32 the second violin C# can move minor 2nd to D instead of a major 7th one for smoothness.

I think it will be great to have some false relation of A#/A natural given that you are playing with the ambiguity of D major/B minor here.

Thx for sharing!

Henry

On 7/3/2023 at 11:22 PM, Henry Ng Tsz Kiu said:

Hey @GospelPiano12,

-I like in b.6 when you are using that hemiola within a hemiola itself when the 9/8 time is changed to 3/4 AND THEN within the 3/4 there's a hemiola. Very interesting rhythm here.

-I feel like the modulation in b.8 unnecessary as it doesn't last long and it's not very remote. 

-The b.14 F double sharp can be noted as a G natural instead

-Will b.23-24 the space too compact? The viola and 2nd violin is almost fighting for their living space there

-I like that half diminished chord in b.26!

-I feel like from b.31 to 32 the second violin C# can move minor 2nd to D instead of a major 7th one for smoothness.

I think it will be great to have some false relation of A#/A natural given that you are playing with the ambiguity of D major/B minor here.

Thx for sharing!

Henry

 

Thank you for the feedback - I think I started developing way TOO soon at the beginning. I think I need another measure or two fo that restful melody before adding in the arpeggios on the viola.