Who do you compose for? What do you expect?

I originally thought of starting a topic called "Why do you compose?"  But a quick search reveals 5 pre-existing topics that have repeatedly asked that same exact question over the years here at Young Composers Forum:

So if you want to know why people here compose just peruse those old topics...

Just kidding!!! 🤣

But seriously - who do you compose for and what do you expect?  I mean it's obvious that composers and people in general are social creatures and yearn for the approval of others around them.  Or do you completely ignore other people and society when you write music and yearn only to express your own inner inspiration?  For me I think the old sociological truism of "Society in Man" applies.  I feel that societies popular musical tastes have to some degree become my own so when I compose music I reflect in that music some of the popular (as well as more unpopular) musical norms.  So of course from my own perspective, I just write music for fun (and that goes with my musical philosophy about music in that I believe that all music is basically playful).  I write for my own enjoyment but I consider that to be in common with my contemporary audience which I feel some satisfaction in saying has to some degree also enjoyed my works.  But it could also be a detriment if a composer composes for attention seeking or places other's opinions above their own.

What do you expect from others?  Do you have healthy boundaries?  How do you react if someone expresses an unfavorable opinion of your music?  And how important are the opinions of others in your musical self worth as a composer?

Yo Peter,

What a nice topic you have made! (And I won't reply to any of those above except share it to my dear Papa Peter)

20 minutes ago, PeterthePapercomPoser said:

So of course from my own perspective, I just write music for fun (and that goes with my musical philosophy about music in that I believe that all music is basically playful).  I write for my own enjoyment but I consider that to be in common with my contemporary audience which I feel some satisfaction in saying has to some degree also enjoyed my works.  But it could also be a detriment if a composer composes for attention seeking or places other's opinions above their own.

FIrst of all I am again the opposite of your own view! I never believe all music is basically playful haha. That's one of the Kantian conception of art as the playing between knowing faculties I don't agree on. I indeed write for my own enjoyment but only for my own enjoyment. I think I do absorb things from the contemporary issue: wars, tragedies everywhere, joy everywhere, human classics which include music and literature and others, but all are absorbed by me and it's me who want to express myself. I sometimes can become attention seeking especially after finishing a work as a part of my post partum syndrome after writing a work, but I think the real me inside isn't like this!

When I write I make sure I pay my 200% attention to my wiriting. It's painful but honestly I enjoy it. It sounds masochistic, but I enjoy the most when the music I am writing gives me the biggest pain! All the struggles are of course very painful and tedious, but that's what I strive for since I know that only through painful writing I would write good music, as I am no genius like Mozart but just a normal guy. 

30 minutes ago, PeterthePapercomPoser said:

Or do you completely ignore other people and society when you write music and yearn only to express your own inner inspiration?  For me I think the old sociological truism of "Society in Man" applies.

I really cannot decipher whether my inspirations are from myself only or from the society or from the world. I don't care where does it come from.

What I expect is that I really write good music and not bullshit and trash. I hate writing with the sake of writing it only as I wanna always express my feelings and thoughts through my music. I also expect the music I composed can heal myself and give myself some meaning to live in the world, as they are unique, as everyone is but when you create some unique works into the world you prove yourself you are unique. I know mentally strong people don't require these kind of things, but I am for sure not one of them haha.

Henry

Because, I suppose, I was musically brought up 'that way' I started composing as a means of expressing things beyond words and the static of fine art. Communication then. I also adhered to much of the semiotics of music - cadences, keys, emotional devices, timbres, to make communication possible.

But soon I sensed the arrogance of expecting others to bother with my outpourings. So now it's become more for fun; a thing I do, ready to put some before an audience (even if a virtual performance at a local 'interest group') but with no expectation that anyone will take any notice. It's why I keep in touch with light music. As an amateur orchestral player I had resources available to perform such work with the advantage of key and regular rhythm making it easier to play. Less about seeking fame than joining in. I have no wish for fame in this modern world when it's probably better to stay below the parapet. Although covid and huge rises in administrative costs have closed down my local orchestra there's one in an adjacent town where I occasionally play. I hope my local one starts up again.

So now about half of my output is more for my own use. Occasionally I hit on something that might be suitable for public performance but I think my composing days are almost up. Results have become more abstract, development more difficult. 

A college professor I happen to know claims I never take music seriously. Perhaps he's right. After an enthusiastic start I gave up college and turned to a different 'profession'. Interest in fame and recognition waned. You can only be famous these days as a successful pop band or film hack (if Zimmer allow you). There are thousands of people composing now all aiming for something on the spectrum from 'for myself' to fame.

So now I expect little (from an audience) but still write to say something about 50% of the time. The other 50% is me musically talking to myself!

On 1/20/2024 at 4:40 AM, Quinn said:

Although covid and huge rises in administrative costs have closed down my local orchestra there's one in an adjacent town where I occasionally play. I hope my local one starts up again.

That's sad!  I do hope your local orchestra starts up again!  That must have been a great asset to have an orchestra ready to perform your new works.  I have sometimes dreamt of holding concerts of only Young Composers Forum works from the past 1 - 2 years.  I bet people would be amazed that new music can still be so entertaining and accessable!

On 1/23/2024 at 5:50 AM, PeterthePapercomPoser said:

That's sad!  I do hope your local orchestra starts up again!  That must have been a great asset to have an orchestra ready to perform your new works.

Yes, one hopes. We have this "cost of living" crisis in the UK, not helped by almost a million migrants last year which local Councils have to house along with our homeless. So financial grants and cheap hall rentals are out in current times.

It's an amateur outfit as is the other I mentioned but among its members were a few retired professionals and those displaced by orchestras closing down. We have a county orchestra for which one has to be an extremely good amateur - that counts me out as I'm about Grade 6 (Associated Boards) but they've played my stuff in the past...not the modern things I should add.

In a way it thwarts development ! as I habitually think of a 5 - 6 minute piece that's more likely to be considered than a Brucknerian symphony.

What's proved useful is talking to the more accomplished players about instrumental techniques; get a few tips.

Edit: I don't want to go off track but todays news declared that over 250 "music venues" in the UK had to close last year. Not good.

For me, it's a combination of many factors. I started being trained in violin (now my day job) when I was a toddler, around the same time I got to see Les Miserables on stage for the very first time. I struggled to practice, but I fell in love with the stage. All throughout my childhood, I gradually gained a greater and greater appreciation for both violin and theatre, but never reconciled one with the other.

I began writing because it seemed like the natural progression of things, after all, [pick a great composer] began writing when they were only 5, so why not me? In first grade I wrote a song, but didn't write anything down on paper again until middle school; but I kept writing, just in my head, or simply improvising in the moment, in the meantime. When Noteflight came out I was going in to high school, and began using it to write. At the same time, my school announced that they would be doing Sweeney Todd- I'd never heard of it before, and it was very much love at first dissonant chord.

I never did my homework in high school, instead choosing to practice or write in any free moment I had. In college, I elected to triple major (though I only ended up getting two of the three degrees) so I'd have an excuse to really focus on writing.

After college, I didn't write for a long time due to trauma. After another trauma (and concussion), I started writing again, and haven't stopped since.

I don't know. I'd like to be able to say that I write because it's my purpose in life, or because I have something I want to share, or better yet, so that I have a legacy that remains behind after my death. Those are certainly all true statements, but they're not why I write, nor descriptive of for whom I write. 

You see, I was kicked out of high school. Just before the verdict, I asked a teacher if I'd ever star in a musical. They said, and I'm paraphrasing here, "You don't have the looks, voice, or presence. No." So I resolved to write my own show, a la Lin Manuel Miranda, to star in myself. 

I very much write because I simply want to, fueled by spite. It's not noble, it's not poignant, and I really don't care. After being hit by a car and having my dream of being a symphonic musician snatched away in an instant, I really just have the one dream left- and the more people that tell me I can't do it, the more I want to prove them wrong. 🙂

I suppose I write just for myself.  My goal is to write music that I think sounds good.  I'm under no illusions that anyone else will ever listen to my music for pleasure.  Nonetheless, I must admit that I do care more than I probably should what others think of my music.  I'm not really sure why.

It's changed a bit overtime, but I've always written music for myself. I only started sharing music online fairly recently I'd say, and I've still only shared a small-ish portion of the music I've written. This has evolved over time because I've found that when I receive feedback, even if I don't like it at first, I end up getting a result I like better. So, I guess I write for other folks, (those that help me improve namely), but ultimately, it's for my own enjoyment and expression (which has been especially expressive lately because I'm going through the angsty depressed teen phase that Henry so detests lol). 

It's interesting because it seems most folks so far write music for themselves over writing for other peoples' enjoyment. I guess I kindof expected such, especially on a forum which has such a high concentration of more "classical" composers.

Honesty I guess for myself. I compose out of inspiration, mostly visual, then compose based on that visual. I have however been trying outside this territory and doing more classical settings. But I compose from imagination and creativity, that is what i thrive off of. When I see an interesting visual or hear an interesting story I am immediately inspired to compose in that regard, hech sometimes even putting the visual on screen while I'm composing. Many times I'll actually create my own stories so that I have a visual to think of for the music itself. Other times I just create from pure imagination tho not rly having a visual or story but instead something to draw inspiration from itself. I've made songs where I even inspired myself lol. But yeah I guess I compose for myself and the beauty of the art. I always have loved the arts, every kind, but music is very special to me. I guess i connect with it the most.

On 1/18/2024 at 12:03 PM, PeterthePapercomPoser said:

quick search reveals 5 pre-existing topics that have repeatedly asked that same exact question over the years here at Young Composers Forum

Not surprising. The " why " is indeed the philosophical, existential, reason for all, especially for something as all-encompassing like music.

On 1/18/2024 at 12:03 PM, PeterthePapercomPoser said:

who do you compose for

I forgot, and to be honest, am too lazy to dig out, the sources of my sociological ideas but yea, it must be both for myself and others ( at the core there are only these two groups ). As for the "others" ( which I think is the main purpose of the question ), I would break them up to " general audiences " and " music audiences " ( those who do know music ). I have this despite to compose music which appeal to both, which brings me to the next point:

On 1/18/2024 at 12:03 PM, PeterthePapercomPoser said:

what do you expect

For myself, I think it is something along the lines of " ( compose something ) that is not to say good but at least is not say bad... you know... something worth hearing, and maybe even listening, to ".

On 1/18/2024 at 12:03 PM, PeterthePapercomPoser said:

But it could also be a detriment if a composer composes for attention seeking or places other's opinions above their own.

What do you expect from others?  Do you have healthy boundaries?  How do you react if someone expresses an unfavorable opinion of your music?  And how important are the opinions of others in your musical self worth as a composer?

I try not to as any expectation is kind of like pre-mediated resentments. Though, I still hope I'd be able to get some appreciation for my music/ is coming from, even as I change and improve, so that I can validate myself that I did add something to this world via my music. As for boundaries, it 's been something I have been working on, as with other relationships. I'm generally very receptive to feedback ( though I'm also a very sensitive person as well ), I try to find learning points from any responses, be it unfavorable or not. For aspects that are objective, hugely-problematic, and easily change ( such as title and notation ), I straight away change them as evident fr sm of my posts here, and change those other scores with same/similar issues. Others I consider, change and improve for future works and pieces. Ofc, some comments are not just blunt but also are not constructive either, a mere attack or troll. For these cases, it is pertinent to put up an internal psychological boundary to protect yourself.

As for the very last part, it is that complex paradox and ( personally for me ) ideal mean between having a spine, being true, and standing up, to your own creations and ( knowing) your place in the world - which entails all other external factors. This cuts especially deep for any creative. Any of the two extremes are unhealthy; with one existing, living and creating for others, without a sense of, or completely losing one's own, self, and being disillusioned with life when the world doesn't acknowledge you; and the other being delusional and stuck in one's own world, without much or any regard for other real world. So for this, I really don't know... I put a lot of worth in the views and ratings of others because a degree of objectivity and grounding is needed at the end of the day, yet there always is that subjective, secret truth that must also not be compromised ASAP. Humility is great and needed, but humility also involves acknowledging your own self, your inherent value.

Ke Shen

When I was active, it was just a hobby of mine, so I composed only for myself. I did not look for approval, however, I do value the opinion of others. And I do respond well to criticism after I reflect hard on their thoughts. There are different types of criticism to be mindful of. Those who are your general audience who may not have a trained ear, and those who are trained. And both types of audiences are critical in terms of the feedback that they can offer.

But getting back to the question, I compose for myself because I enjoy the art. Creating melodies is fun! And putting harmony to the melody is also satisfying. Creating a story from your melodies and harmonies is similar to writing a book. And since I am someone who loves to create, writing music is just another medium to help satisfy my love for building things. It started with legos, evolved to music, and helped shape me into an architect in terms of computer programming.

At the moment for the suits at record companies and TV editors LOL

But honestly, I'm different from most people regarding this, and kinda always have been. I don't try to do the "modest" thing.

I compose music to be listened to. I honestly just don't really see the point in composing, otherwise. In composing "for myself" I've always composed because there is a piece of music in my mind that I want to hear, and I haven't found anyone else composing. That's not to say it's a terribly-original idea (I hardly care about being super different tbh) but it's presented in a way I want to hear and no one else is doing, or at least I can't be bothered to dig that long to find it, so I'll just do it on my own because that is faster. So I compose for myself from the perspective of a music appreciator rather than a composer.

I hear these composers who say "Oh I don't listen to my stuff once I'm done with it." and I'm just like "WTF is even the point then if you're not going to enjoy your own work?"

But also, and (bizarrely) more controversially, I want to try and contribute to not just culture, but a high-culture that promotes beauty and excellence. I care about the craft of composition, and want to keep the traditions that our ancestors established alive; ideas that worked to create their timeless pieces that have inspired people across cultures for generations in the hope that maybe one day I'll be able to achieve the same.

That necessarily involves the approval of other people, and despite the tortured wishes of many today, "good and bad" or "beautiful and ugly" are much more universally-recognized than some would have us believe. So whether or not you're creating something that will really resonate with people really isn't a matter of chance. When you observe what the consensus around your work is, the attention it is getting or not getting; it lets you know how well you're progressing. If tons of people are saying "You suck", and you care about bringing joy to people instead of misery and aural obscenity, it will force you to try harder and to learn more about the craft.

Lastly, it's really great when you make something that does bring joy to people. Over the years, I've been fortunate enough to have received comments and messages from total strangers saying they like my work, it uplifted them somehow, and it inspires them in their own.

That's what it's all about.

On 1/17/2024 at 9:03 PM, PeterthePapercomPoser said:

What do you expect from others?

Depends on the "others" in question

On 1/17/2024 at 9:03 PM, PeterthePapercomPoser said:

How do you react if someone expresses an unfavorable opinion of your music?

Depends if it's a lay person or another musician.

There are a lot of musicians on the internet who can blow it out their @$$ tbh

One of the things that keeps me coming back to YC is this is one of the few places on the web where the feedback and responses you get from people is generally coming from people who know what they're talking about, and do make valid points if they have something negative to say.

It's not like that elsewhere, though. I actually read one of Christopher Siu's daily spam emails he sends me recently that talked about how on forums, there are usually all these arrogant people who provide trash feedback, and that is often the case by my experience in decades of music forums and the like.

Usually, there is one or two guys who give the majority of feedback, and they always have very strong negative opinions and telling you what to do, but they themselves are actually of abysmally-low ability. They've never written a coherent melody in their lives, but are quite certain there's much wrong with yours.

Thankfully that's not happening here; Henry gives feedback on just about every piece, but Henry actually knows what he's doing and so it's worth listening to him.