My first symphony

So anyway, the last time I tried to write a symphony was almost 8 years ago, and it was so terrible that it's now called Symphony No. 0 and we never speak of it. I was 15 at the time. I suppose (most) teenagers aren't generally known for writing great symphonies.

But I recently tried again. This is now my Symphony No. 1. I just finished it today. It's in one vast, slow through-composed movement. I wonder if, as you listen, it is obvious who my main stylistic influences were.

The entire piece is built from one motif, the three-note figure that bookends the whole thing of the rising leap followed by the falling step.

I've been working on this for about six months. This symphony was the product of a lot of experimentation and often changing course on the fly. Not only have I never written this much slow music all at once before, but these are the largest orchestral forces I've ever handled, with the greatest variety of orchestral color at my disposal. It's also the first time in a while I have allowed myself the luxury of a harp, as previously I had always been wary of giving myself the opportunity to commit any of a number of common orchestration blunders.

I'm enjoying the fruits of the new Muse Sounds I have gained access to by virtue of switching to Musescore. They're wonderful. They can be a bit buggy, but sometimes it's almost scary how human they sound.

Curious about how this will be received.

I don't usually like slow movements but this is quite captivating!  Once the triplet subdivisions come in it doesn't sound that slow anymore.  You seem to have gotten the hang of Musescore pretty well!  I find it hard to discern the theme in such slow music though and it would've been great if you had included a scherzando section for contrast.  I know you subdivide the music in various ways, but those subdivisions aren't thematic.  Your melody is throughout the movement plodding along at the same slow rate which makes at least that part of it a bit monotonous.  This review is based on just one listening of your work though so take it with a grain of salt.

As to what composers you might be emulating:  might it be Bruckner?  Or maybe Sibelius?  That's just a stab in the dark LoL.  Thanks for sharing!

24 minutes ago, PeterthePapercomPoser said:

I don't usually like slow movements but this is quite captivating!  Once the triplet subdivisions come in it doesn't sound that slow anymore.  You seem to have gotten the hang of Musescore pretty well!  I find it hard to discern the theme in such slow music though and it would've been great if you had included a scherzando section for contrast.  I know you subdivide the music in various ways, but those subdivisions aren't thematic.  Your melody is throughout the movement plodding along at the same slow rate which makes at least that part of it a bit monotonous.  This review is based on just one listening of your work though so take it with a grain of salt.

As to what composers you might be emulating:  might it be Bruckner?  Or maybe Sibelius?  That's just a stab in the dark LoL.  Thanks for sharing!

 

I originally wrote the beginnings of a scherzando section that was going to appear at M, but I eventually scrapped it and put in what is there now. So it's definitely a thought I had, but I rejected it. I didn't think it fit. It broke the dramatic arc for me.

I don't know very much of the oeuvre of either Bruckner or Sibelius, though I've started trying to explore Bruckner more recently and I am at least consciously aware that at times his influence did start to make itself felt as I got into the middle and end of the symphony. However, a much nearer and dearer inspiration to me is Mahler, and Tchaikovsky was on my mind heavily when composing the dance-like sections, despite me not really being aware of any specific piece by him that has those characteristics. I wasn't aiming to emulate any particular person though, so I could very well have created a hybrid style.

Hi @Aria Donn,

I love this so so so much!!!! Not because it’s in my favourite C sharp minor, but the tragic emotion, the struggle, the hope for brightness and the disappointment is so authentic and honest here. It’s a long slow movement in 18 minutes but I never feel a single moment that is boring, since anything which has real and honest emotion is almost always worth listening to.

For me I love the coherence of the movement. Even though the motive is not really strict in a Beethovanian sense, it definitely provides the tragic sound with that sighing of minor 2nd and your clash of minor 2nd (which I use in my pieces too!). The orchestration is masterful for me. Your string writing is of course masterful given how great you play violin, but your Tchaikovskian use of woodwinds and Mahlerian brass is so great a combination in different passages.

I love section G onwards very very much since you invite a lot of counterpoint here and I love all those dissonance. Definitely see the influence of Bruckner here with that famous C sharp minor slow movement. The climax in section Q is so so well built, as well as the cooling down of it for quicker note values! For the ending maybe I will invite some Picardy chords before having it crushed by the tragic C sharp minor, thus making the fate more cruel and tragic!! But that’s subjective.

On 4/7/2024 at 3:15 AM, Aria Donn said:

originally wrote the beginnings of a scherzando section that was going to appear at M, but I eventually scrapped it and put in what is there now. So it's definitely a thought I had, but I rejected it. I didn't think it fit. It broke the dramatic arc for me.

I totally agree with your choice here. A scherzando section will ruin the tragic aura of the piece and make it a cheap soap opera! It would be strange to invite some unwanted contrast when the main body itself is so well built and logical. I love your total darkness with a bit of light here very very much.

Maybe I love C sharp minor too much, I personally feel like it can stay longer at the beginning! I think the A major contrasting passage gets in a bit early in section C! But that’s personal.

Thx so much for sharing your masterpiece here Donn! I enjoy every second of it and I wish it’s just a slow movement of a huge symphony like Bruckner’s 7th, so I can enjoy more from it!

Henry

27 minutes ago, Henry Ng Tsz Kiu said:

Hi @Aria Donn,

I love this so so so much!!!! Not because it’s in my favourite C sharp minor, but the tragic emotion, the struggle, the hope for brightness and the disappointment is so authentic and honest here. It’s a long slow movement in 18 minutes but I never feel a single moment that is boring, since anything which has real and honest emotion is almost always worth listening to.

For me I love the coherence of the movement. Even though the motive is not really strict in a Beethovanian sense, it definitely provides the tragic sound with that sighing of minor 2nd and your clash of minor 2nd (which I use in my pieces too!). The orchestration is masterful for me. Your string writing is of course masterful given how great you play violin, but your Tchaikovskian use of woodwinds and Mahlerian brass is so great a combination in different passages.

I love section G onwards very very much since you invite a lot of counterpoint here and I love all those dissonance. Definitely see the influence of Bruckner here with that famous C sharp minor slow movement. The climax in section Q is so so well built, as well as the cooling down of it for quicker note values! For the ending maybe I will invite some Picardy chords before having it crushed by the tragic C sharp minor, thus making the fate more cruel and tragic!! But that’s subjective.

I totally agree with your choice here. A scherzando section will ruin the tragic aura of the piece and make it a cheap soap opera! It would be strange to invite some unwanted contrast when the main body itself is so well built and logical. I love your total darkness with a bit of light here very very much.

Maybe I love C sharp minor too much, I personally feel like it can stay longer at the beginning! I think the A major contrasting passage gets in a bit early in section C! But that’s personal.

Thx so much for sharing your masterpiece here Donn! I enjoy every second of it and I wish it’s just a slow movement of a huge symphony like Bruckner’s 7th, so I can enjoy more from it!

Henry

 

It's really funny that you detect the influence of Bruckner 7.

I only listened to Bruckner 7 for the first time after the bulk of the piece had already been written! And I don't know it that well yet. When I started writing, I still didn't understand Bruckner and didn't like him.

I definitely can see the resemblance, but it actually barely influenced me because I mostly wasn't aware of it!

11 minutes ago, Aria Donn said:

It's really funny that you detect the influence of Bruckner 7.

I only listened to Bruckner 7 for the first time after the bulk of the piece had already been written! And I don't know it that well yet. When I started writing, I still didn't understand Bruckner and didn't like him.

I definitely can see the resemblance, but it actually barely influenced me because I mostly wasn't aware of it!

Maybe it’s unconscious influencing!

21 hours ago, Henry Ng Tsz Kiu said:

Hi @Aria Donn,

I love this so so so much!!!! Not because it’s in my favourite C sharp minor, but the tragic emotion, the struggle, the hope for brightness and the disappointment is so authentic and honest here. It’s a long slow movement in 18 minutes but I never feel a single moment that is boring, since anything which has real and honest emotion is almost always worth listening to.

For me I love the coherence of the movement. Even though the motive is not really strict in a Beethovanian sense, it definitely provides the tragic sound with that sighing of minor 2nd and your clash of minor 2nd (which I use in my pieces too!). The orchestration is masterful for me. Your string writing is of course masterful given how great you play violin, but your Tchaikovskian use of woodwinds and Mahlerian brass is so great a combination in different passages.

I love section G onwards very very much since you invite a lot of counterpoint here and I love all those dissonance. Definitely see the influence of Bruckner here with that famous C sharp minor slow movement. The climax in section Q is so so well built, as well as the cooling down of it for quicker note values! For the ending maybe I will invite some Picardy chords before having it crushed by the tragic C sharp minor, thus making the fate more cruel and tragic!! But that’s subjective.

I totally agree with your choice here. A scherzando section will ruin the tragic aura of the piece and make it a cheap soap opera! It would be strange to invite some unwanted contrast when the main body itself is so well built and logical. I love your total darkness with a bit of light here very very much.

Maybe I love C sharp minor too much, I personally feel like it can stay longer at the beginning! I think the A major contrasting passage gets in a bit early in section C! But that’s personal.

Thx so much for sharing your masterpiece here Donn! I enjoy every second of it and I wish it’s just a slow movement of a huge symphony like Bruckner’s 7th, so I can enjoy more from it!

Henry

 

Indeed, Beethoven's ability to create coherence and emotional depth through subtle motivic development is legendary, and his use of minor seconds can evoke a sense of tragedy and tension like few other devices can.

Wow, this is so great! You're a gifted writer, and I really love the fact that you took to heart your goal of constructing the entire symphony from the rising then falling motif. Brilliant execution of that. I admit I heard this when you first posted, but something this massive took a while with repeated listens to really figure out what I could even say, or what I even wanted to say haha. 

This is just bloated with drama, and a great introduction of your symphonic prowess. I've noticed that no matter what I'm writing, part of who I am and what my personal situation is leaks out into the notes. I'm curious how personal this is to you, since it's your first symphony "no.1" (😛)? It sounds so emotional that I'd have a hard time believing it was all puzzle fitting and theory crafting. 

I really enjoyed the overall arch of the dynamics. Even though it was slow, as you say, it had plenty of motion and variation within it that it wasn't a bother to me. But this kind of crescendo then diminuendo of the dynamics overall throughout it's duration was really cool, and helped make it cohesive as a one movement symphony. 

The melodies are all superb, it's so rich in emotional depth to me. I love how you're a phenomenal string player, but you didn't make this about the violin. The tossing around of motifs and careful planning of color balance was a treat. I also can't thank you enough for hiding empty staves, it makes it so much easier to read and much more worth a composer peer's time. 

On 4/6/2024 at 1:44 PM, PeterthePapercomPoser said:

  I find it hard to discern the theme in such slow music though and it would've been great if you had included a scherzando section for contrast.  I know you subdivide the music in various ways, but those subdivisions aren't thematic.  Your melody is throughout the movement plodding along at the same slow rate which makes at least that part of it a bit monotonous.

On 4/6/2024 at 2:15 PM, Aria Donn said:

I originally wrote the beginnings of a scherzando section that was going to appear at M, but I eventually scrapped it and put in what is there now. So it's definitely a thought I had, but I rejected it. I didn't think it fit. It broke the dramatic arc for me.

On 4/8/2024 at 9:07 AM, Henry Ng Tsz Kiu said:

I totally agree with your choice here. A scherzando section will ruin the tragic aura of the piece and make it a cheap soap opera! It would be strange to invite some unwanted contrast when the main body itself is so well built and logical. I love your total darkness with a bit of light here very very much.

 I love this kind of discussion. THIS is what makes people better at composition. 

There's no right or wrong here, just opinions from talented people. I agree with Peter in a way. I'm not sure if he meant a literal scherzando, but a change in texture would be advantageous, especially for a one movement symphony. Right at M, I love where you go here. But I think this would have been the perfect spot to build your motif in a faster rhythmic way. I love the heavy drama here, the light-heartedness might not fit. But I found myself continuing to relisten to this spot, where it builds really massively and then ends solemnly. I just kept zoning out, and I think it's because I was so used to the slower texture that my ears wanted a change rhythmically. If this was movement 1 of a multimovement work, I think it's more than fine as is. But as a one-movement symphony, it may have been something to consider deeper, and definitely for future thought. 

Overall though, this piece of yours hits closer to my heart than you might know, as I'm almost done with a long symphonic work that's slower... and in the same key sig... and nearly as long...

But I digress. 😄 Lovely music, wonderfully clean score, and congratulations on completing your first symphony! I've listened to this numerous times now, and can say that I'll reference this when I have my own orchestration or notation questions. Extraordinarily beautiful composition 🙂 

50 minutes ago, Thatguy v2.0 said:

This is just bloated with drama, and a great introduction of your symphonic prowess. I've noticed that no matter what I'm writing, part of who I am and what my personal situation is leaks out into the notes. I'm curious how personal this is to you, since it's your first symphony "no.1" (😛)? It sounds so emotional that I'd have a hard time believing it was all puzzle fitting and theory crafting. 

Thanks for your kind review! Actually this piece is extremely personal to me. The motivic development was the unifying force keeping me from spiraling off-track with my conceptions and keeping any new material closely bound to the old material -- it wasn't just a theory exercise. But fundamentally the emotional trajectory was inspired (vaguely) by my struggles with gender identity and my eventual transition. I started composing this piece barely two months into my full-time social transition. There's no "program" per se, but that's where it was all coming from.

1 hour ago, Thatguy v2.0 said:

Overall though, this piece of yours hits closer to my heart than you might know, as I'm almost done with a long symphonic work that's slower... and in the same key sig... and nearly as long...

It's funny because I encountered another composer on reddit who, about a month before I completed my own symphony, had published a symphony in a fairly similar style that was inspired by her gender transition. A boatload of other really crazy coincidences between both us and our symphonies then stacked up so high that a two nickels meme could be made out of it. It happens...

On 4/5/2024 at 11:32 PM, Aria Donn said:

So anyway, the last time I tried to write a symphony was almost 8 years ago, and it was so terrible that it's now called Symphony No. 0 and we never speak of it. I was 15 at the time. I suppose (most) teenagers aren't generally known for writing great symphonies.

But I recently tried again. This is now my Symphony No. 1. I just finished it today. It's in one vast, slow through-composed movement. I wonder if, as you listen, it is obvious who my main stylistic influences were.

The entire piece is built from one motif, the three-note figure that bookends the whole thing of the rising leap followed by the falling step.

I've been working on this for about six months. This symphony was the product of a lot of experimentation and often changing course on the fly. Not only have I never written this much slow music all at once before, but these are the largest orchestral forces I've ever handled, with the greatest variety of orchestral color at my disposal. It's also the first time in a while I have allowed myself the luxury of a harp, as previously I had always been wary of giving myself the opportunity to commit any of a number of common orchestration blunders.

I'm enjoying the fruits of the new Muse Sounds I have gained access to by virtue of switching to Musescore. They're wonderful. They can be a bit buggy, but sometimes it's almost scary how human they sound.

Curious about how this will be received.

 

MP3

 

 

Play / pause

• Symphony in C sharp

18:26

 

 

18:58

volume

 

> next

menu

 

Symphony in C sharp

 

> next

PDF

• Symphony in C sharp

I love how it builds up slowly to a more intens and fun part.

1 hour ago, murphybridget said:

love how it builds up slowly to a more intens and fun part.

you can just quote particular word passages but not the whole post including the mp3 and PDF since it makes your post unnecessarily long when you just have a sentence to say......

Henry

A very well written orchestral piece, it's quite impressive how it all comes from one theme, yet it doesn't at all feel repetitive or monotonous. If my use of the harp was "horribly excessive", this goes to the opposite extreme - the harp pretty much doesn't exist at all. There are so few notes for the harp here that it begs the question: why not just drop the harp entirely and put those notes as pizzicato in the strings instead or something like that?

Funnily enough, this seems to be in a way the exact opposite of my orchestral work. This appears more minimalist and even somewhat impressionist, while mine is complex and abstract with 12 distinct themes. Was this intentional or just a normal consequence of your usual style?

22 minutes ago, Jaden Davidson said:

This appears more minimalist and even somewhat impressionist, while mine is complex and abstract with 12 distinct themes.

Are you sure your 12 distinct themes are complex and abstract or messy and absurd?

22 minutes ago, Jaden Davidson said:

why not just drop the harp entirely and put those notes as pizzicato in the strings instead or something like that?

Isn't the timbre of harp and strings pizz. different?

Henry

51 minutes ago, Jaden Davidson said:

A very well written orchestral piece, it's quite impressive how it all comes from one theme, yet it doesn't at all feel repetitive or monotonous. If my use of the harp was "horribly excessive", this goes to the opposite extreme - the harp pretty much doesn't exist at all. There are so few notes for the harp here that it begs the question: why not just drop the harp entirely and put those notes as pizzicato in the strings instead or something like that?

Funnily enough, this seems to be in a way the exact opposite of my orchestral work. This appears more minimalist and even somewhat impressionist, while mine is complex and abstract with 12 distinct themes. Was this intentional or just a normal consequence of your usual style?

 

45 minutes ago, Henry Ng Tsz Kiu said:

Are you sure your 12 distinct themes are complex and abstract or messy and absurd?

Isn't the timbre of harp and strings pizz. different?

Henry

 

This dialog is pretty much correct I think. There's a difference between writing something abstract and writing something unidiomatic and needlessly difficult. Hiding behind supposed goals of abstraction and complexity to excuse bad writing is not an easily definable thing, but like pornography according to the Supreme Court, "you know it when you see it" if you are a relatively experienced composer.

My use of harp is very sparing, but that's roughly in line with how it should be used. As Thomas Goss (of OrchestrationOnline) says: decoration, filigree, support. The harp is like dessert, adding great delicacy to a thin texture but rapidly becoming stale if overused. Every orchestration challenge he issues stipulates NO HARP CONCERTOS for a reason: beginner composers see the double staff and get overexcited about what they (think they) can give the harpist, and wildly overestimate the instrument's real capabilities. At the end of the day the harpist has an ungodly difficult part that just gets drowned or forgotten in the texture.

Let the harp do what it does best. The harpist won't mind if they have to sit and count some rests any more than my poor trumpet players will. They're paid to do that, so to speak. Notice that some of the most idiomatic harp writing I employ comes in the come una danza sections where I use glissandi and rolled chords - two extremely common and standard harp techniques to just add some background lush flavor to the texture. The exact notes played, insofar as they make the right chords, aren't important. The most I have the harpist do in a foreground role throughout the entire piece is that little dainty rising scale in the reprise of the danza. Again, decoration, filigree, support.

To the other point, this work is actually not drawing on minimalism at all. The glacial note values are an emotional expression tool, not an attempt to simplify or pare anything down. My contrapuntal lines are actually fairly intricate a lot of the time even when the note values are long and the textures are thin.

5 hours ago, Aria Donn said:

This dialog is pretty much correct I think. There's a difference between writing something abstract and writing something unidiomatic and needlessly difficult. Hiding behind supposed goals of abstraction and complexity to excuse bad writing is not an easily definable thing, but like pornography according to the Supreme Court, "you know it when you see it" if you are a relatively experienced composer.

My use of harp is very sparing, but that's roughly in line with how it should be used. As Thomas Goss (of OrchestrationOnline) says: decoration, filigree, support. The harp is like dessert, adding great delicacy to a thin texture but rapidly becoming stale if overused. Every orchestration challenge he issues stipulates NO HARP CONCERTOS for a reason: beginner composers see the double staff and get overexcited about what they (think they) can give the harpist, and wildly overestimate the instrument's real capabilities. At the end of the day the harpist has an ungodly difficult part that just gets drowned or forgotten in the texture.

Let the harp do what it does best. The harpist won't mind if they have to sit and count some rests any more than my poor trumpet players will. They're paid to do that, so to speak. Notice that some of the most idiomatic harp writing I employ comes in the come una danza sections where I use glissandi and rolled chords - two extremely common and standard harp techniques to just add some background lush flavor to the texture. The exact notes played, insofar as they make the right chords, aren't important. The most I have the harpist do in a foreground role throughout the entire piece is that little dainty rising scale in the reprise of the danza. Again, decoration, filigree, support.

To the other point, this work is actually not drawing on minimalism at all. The glacial note values are an emotional expression tool, not an attempt to simplify or pare anything down. My contrapuntal lines are actually fairly intricate a lot of the time even when the note values are long and the textures are thin.

hahaha pwned

It's nice how patient you are with the music.  The music is purposeful with a clear direction.

You really know how to create an atmosphere - for example at section G on page 7. 

I was moved by your music. 

Initially, I was going to say that "there were some moments where it seemed you were entirely in your own mind and the music was struck in a loop of meandering tension...." but then it finally arrived at the climax and thought to myself, actually that prolonged passage of tension was worth it.

You are an excellent composer. 

On 4/18/2024 at 9:13 PM, Symphonic said:

It's nice how patient you are with the music.  The music is purposeful with a clear direction.

You really know how to create an atmosphere - for example at section G on page 7. 

I was moved by your music. 

Initially, I was going to say that "there were some moments where it seemed you were entirely in your own mind and the music was struck in a loop of meandering tension...." but then it finally arrived at the climax and thought to myself, actually that prolonged passage of tension was worth it.

You are an excellent composer. 

 

Music is a challenging, but very rewarding endeavor.

Firstly, the audio rendering is superb and the orchestration engaging.  You created a wonderful musical space to sit in and be.  As for the which composers influence you ... I personally hear the late romantics as they move into the 20th century.  Yes, a bit of Mahler towards the climax of the work as well as others in that specific time reference.

Mark