How to notate additive rhythms?

Hi everyone,

I’m looking for some advice on how to notate additive, prose-like rhythms. They aren’t typically too complex, but they don’t fit into clean metrical cycles. I’ve been discouraged before from having a time signature change in every bar, out of practical concerns, but I’m not finding a more practical solution.

Another tricky part is notating passages where rhythmic cycles might be offset in different instruments. I need a good strategy to ensure ensemble coordination (right now it’s mostly chamber music). One thing I’ve seen in Ligeti’s scores is to have a 4/4 signature as a basic grid, but indicating rhythmic stresses by beaming or accents instead of metrical position. I’ve tried it, but I’ve found it makes my rhythms seem even less intuitive, often with pesky ties across bars.

Here’s a rhythmic excerpt, that I’ve included to demonstrate how I’ve currently been notating. It most clearly reflects how I think the rhythms. The omission of the denominator was inspired by scores of Mompou (you may agree with it or not), and the general format was influenced by some additive-based pieces by Arvo Part. Is it possible to keep this solution? Or does it hinder sightreading or ensemble coordination?

Thanks in advance for any advice you can offer on the matter. I’d really appreciate it!

01 - Full score - Rhythmic notation sketch.pdf

Edited Saturday at 06:22 PM2 days by CrystalCanon

Hello !......Here's 3 examples that might Inspire.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Additive_rhythm_and_divisive_rhythm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prose

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drone_music

Edited 20 hours ago20 hr by interlect

I can see that some composers of art songs (Messiaen, Barber, etc.) omit time signatures entirely in their art songs. I wonder if this is an option -- though probably less practical for larger instrumental groups?

Hello

In his short treatise, Messiaen says the following on this subject:

To ensure this system is executed correctly without taxing the musician’s mind with constant changes in time signature (such as 5/16, 7/16, 11/16), Messiaen offers the following advice regarding the score:

Omit the numerical time signature at the start of the system.

Use bar lines only to delimit musical phrases or complete rhythmic periods, not to mark strong accents.

Keep the plicae grouped together in logical clusters of notes so that the performer can visually identify the original ‘skeleton’.

It is true that this system (I believe the composer himself mentions this as well) is not useful for orchestras, or even chamber ensembles, where changes in time signature must be indicated.

Edited 11 hours ago11 hr by Luis Hernández

This whole concept sounds like a "Fable" ?........... "The Emperor's New Clothes"

Edited 11 hours ago11 hr by interlect

5 hours ago, interlect said:

This whole concept sounds like a "Fable" ?........... "The Emperor's New Clothes"

Kindly Interlect, I do not see how this holds any relevance to this thread or the whole of YCF. As a newer member to the staff, I must remind you to keep posts and comments oriented to their respective threads or forums.

Unsolicited PNGs, links or other material not related to the forums is a violation of the YCF etiquette and can be subject to removal. Any subsequent comments not related to CrystalCanon and their thread will be removed for irrelevancy. Please funnel concerns in a direct message to a staff member.

so now your a MODERATOR ?, ................Telling people what they can and cannot say ?

using words like UNSOLICITED MATERIEL ?.... In this regard your judgement is Flawed.

in my opinion the concept discussed above, is exactly like the FABEL.....The kings new clothes.

so please stop functioning like GOD

Hi @interlect ,

1 hour ago, interlect said:

so now your a MODERATOR ?, ................Telling people what they can and cannot say ?

using words like UNSOLICITED MATERIEL ?.... In this regard your judgement is Flawed.

in my opinion the concept discussed above, is exactly like the FABEL.....The kings new clothes.

so please stop functioning like GOD

For sure we are not Gods, but we do have forum etiquette to follow:

You may check out rule 2a and 2b:

2a) Keep threads on topic. Although the forum is meant almost exclusively for music discussions, there are sub-forums which are dedicated to any topic which can be used, if users so desire, to "shoot the sh*t".

2b) But if a thread is meant to be about a specific musical composition posted in "Upload your Compositions for Analysis and Feedback" please keep the thread about the music posted in question. If you want to post a new piece of music as a response to someone else's post, please create a new dedicated topic for that piece.

It's our responsibility to keep the thread on topic. I think except for you, the fable simile and that PNG aren't related to the topic at all and what it does is move other members' attention away from real discussion of a truly meaningful topic.

I hate everytime when the forum etiquette post has to be quoted, because that means someone violates them no matter intentionally or accidentally, since normally the rules are followed even without knowing their existence. But if they aren't followed, we have the responsibilities to have you acknowledged. We really apperciates your time here, but make sure you follow the forum etiquettes so we can enjoy your longer stay here!

Henry