Obscene Obsession for Full Symphonic Orchestra

Nikolas

I just listened to this again (for the againth time) and you do something so wonderful with this piece. It seems like everyone wanted resolve to the tension, judging by the comments, but the funny thing is i didnt ever feel teh tension/resolve atmosphere of it. This piece makes me view music in such a different and unique way. I'll be honest, i didnt follow the score (because i was sick of getting lost lol), so i just sat in the dark and listened as intently as i could. I cant describe it, im not that advanced in music yet, but it jsut seemed like one gigantic coherent and incredibly clear whole. what you do with this piece i have no idea, but for some reason this piece made so much sense to me. It was very easy to view your audio painting, and im just flattered that you stick around this site (along with a few other advanced composers) to broadcast your beautiful work. yes, i do believe this is beautiful, partly because of the fact like i said that i honestly cant see a need to resolve. ya its dissonant and chaotic, but i feel the different themes you used and extravagant colors of the orchestra add to the fire, and i just couldnt stop staring. you are a fantastic composer, one of the best that ive heard.

my favorite parts were many, some that stand out though are, well, like i said i couldnt follow the score, but a little over halfway through this you had something that sounded like hasty footsteps, and ya it scared the scraggy out of me :D . also, you quoted stravinsky's rite of spring in here..i loved it! the last i will mention is the end section, where i heard some of the most picture-esque beautiful orchestration. kudos again Nikolas, fantazmic work!!!

Vince

Vince, (thatguy)

Thank you very much for your kind words! :) It's marvelous to see your work so well received and appreciated! It makes everything worth, you know.

________________________________

I think it's time to explain in much detail the coherency that some of you hear and some of you don't!

This whole piece is based on a giant fractal starting on the very very first note and ending in the last note of the piece. No gaps, no nothing, except the small rest between chapter 6 and 7.

It is divided into 7 chapters/movements which are all played attacca (except 6-7 as I said before).

You start out with 5 notes and each chapter you add an extra note (pitch that is). So in chapter 7 you have ended in (5+6) 11 pitches. there is a single pitch absent from the whole work. There is nowhere to be found. Last chapter death ends 1/16th before the pitch should normally appear!

Now the fractal guiding it:

You have 5 extra extra long notes (sustained) in chapter one. ACEbFG# . These are the 5 pitches appearing in Birth, btw. In various durations, each of 20 something bars or so!

These notes (the durations that is), are divided into 2 and 3, each one like this:

AcebCebEbfg#Fg#G#dA

(the d being a new pitch, introduced in chapter 2/creation)

Each note of the above is again divided by 2 and 3 and this carries on for 7 times in total.

Last chapter, death, has been resolved in continuous 16th notes, duration wise, but ptich wise it all is guided by the first 5 pitches still!

Here is the awful notes (in score format) of the fractal alone: www.nikolas-sideris.com/oofractal.pdf . If you go towards the end (around page 17-18) and check the D (which stands for death), you should see the continuous 16ths, as well as the full score of the actual death score (orchestrated), minus the orchestration of course.

There you go, analysis blown away! :)

Again thank you for your post, Vince, it was great!

I agree fully. I didn't really want the tension to resolve, in fact, when it ended, I wanted more tension! "Is that all?!" was the thought going through my mind. However, I loved the piece from start to finish. Birth was my favorite section, especially the huge buildup to the climax to the end. I have to agree that the second half was slightly lacking (what it was lacking however, I'm not sure). Also, the second section (I forget the name) seemed to drag on a little bit, with all the repeating lines and what not. If I had written it I probably would have added some more melodic stuff in the bass instruments underneath all the upper woodwind chaos. But hey, it's your piece, not mine.

All in all, great job. There may be some orchestrational flaws, but I'm not one to be all nitpicky with the score analysis and whatnot. It sounds great as it is anyway.

- ClassicalSax

Thanks CS!

I just wish I could get it performed live! That WOULD BE awesome!

YEs, I do agree that there is a tiny bit of a design flaw there (with refering to the fractal 100% and not leaving the piece to breathe at all, thus maybe draging a bit), but now what's done is done! It took SO long to finish that there's slim chances to retouch this, unless I have plenty of time and there is a good reason!

Other than that, if, by any chance, you're refering to QCCs comments about the score, they were very helpful! I'm all up for any comments to become better. :) I need it as well you know, as much as you and anybody! :) (does this sound a bit too much? Hope not... :S)

My only question is, how many times must I sacrifice a lamb to this musical God, nikolas.

My only question is, how many times must I sacrifice a lamb to this musical God, nikolas.

Try this link:

www.donatetomusicalgodNikolas.com

I can't believe I actually clicked on that :laugh:

As always with your music, I vaguely understood it, and greatly enjoyed it :)

I'm not sure I can tell you anything constructive, but I just wanted to let you know I enjoyed it - considerably more so than the first time I listened when you first uploaded it, when it scared the hell out of me.

Mark :happy:

Really amazing stuff here. I enjoy this kinda stuff. I love the colors and everything thats happening. Really enjoyable I loved it. So much emotion, its really quite good.

It's a difficult one, this.

I didn't enjoy it, and I think it was because, modally, it never moved from its ground: the sort of major-minor stuff around F. Always was there. And you did interesting things, rhythmical shifting and what have you, but ultimately I was left rather uninspired, the piece having tried to take me somewhere, but in doing so smothered me a little bit. I'm talking in extremes, but its the kind of piece that is so homogeneous that it makes you want to cough and get a drink of water afterwards.

I'm not against homogeneity, Messiaen (apart maybe from Turangalila, which is far more conventional) does it wonderfully, but he does it with a kind of colourful finesse and conviction. With your piece, I got the feeling you had chosen to stick to some notes, and stuck to them. You had forced all of your ideas to fit this mould of your notes, resulting in a tiger in an F major-minor cage. Messiaen is stuck in the cage of his style, and what a beautiful style that is, that infinitely detailed, ever expanding vision.

Perhaps its an Obscene Obsession with this pitch world. Who knows? But ultimately, as I've said, the piece itself is tedious to me, and I'm reminded of Schumann (paraphrased): A good title will not save a poor piece.

I'm sorry if I've been harsh, but you've put so much effort in, I feel I should give a valid comment.

L.

It's a difficult one, this.

I didn't enjoy it, and I think it was because, modally, it never moved from its ground: the sort of major-minor stuff around F. Always was there. And you did interesting things, rhythmical shifting and what have you, but ultimately I was left rather uninspired, the piece having tried to take me somewhere, but in doing so smothered me a little bit. I'm talking in extremes, but its the kind of piece that is so homogeneous that it makes you want to cough and get a drink of water afterwards.

I'm not against homogeneity, Messiaen (apart maybe from Turangalila, which is far more conventional) does it wonderfully, but he does it with a kind of colourful finesse and conviction. With your piece, I got the feeling you had chosen to stick to some notes, and stuck to them. You had forced all of your ideas to fit this mould of your notes, resulting in a tiger in an F major-minor cage. Messiaen is stuck in the cage of his style, and what a beautiful style that is, that infinitely detailed, ever expanding vision.

Perhaps its an Obscene Obsession with this pitch world. Who knows? But ultimately, as I've said, the piece itself is tedious to me, and I'm reminded of Schumann (paraphrased): A good title will not save a poor piece.

I'm sorry if I've been harsh, but you've put so much effort in, I feel I should give a valid comment.

L.

you've not been harsh just a little off with comparisons with Messiaen, etc.. ;) And "A good title will not save a poor piece" sounds bit mean with no reason really. I just don't see the point in such a comment. (apart from saying you liked the title? :D)

But either way, everyone to their opinion and I do agree about the homogeneity of the piece, it's there, as well as the obsession with certain pitches.

Well these are my thoughts as I listened through your piece twice with a brief pause between them. I do not intend to be hurtful but I speak my mind so excuse me for my bluntness.

-

I found 5 sections to the piece when I listened and I'll go through each one.

Pt. 1-Pt. 2(Cued by the buildup into the large minimalistic texture) - I really like the atmosphere of these two and their developments were very interesting and moving. These were my favorite parts to the piece. I loved it when it kinda of calmed down around 5:00 before the violin stabs came in.

Pt. 3- This part for me felt like it lasted way too long. It was developed overtly and lacked the carrying power of the first two. It also was missing the downtime needed for an enticing theatrical experiance to conclude the rest of the piece. I would have personaly switched this with pt. 2. (Note-Around 7:43 was extremely nice.)

This part of the piece was when I got hopelessly lost within the development of it. The piece had turned into something that had gone on too long and I was starting to lose interest.

Pt. 4- I enjoyed this movement alot but it too lacked the exponential growth I love in music. Did I hear a bit of the second movement for Stravinsky's Rite of Spring with the accenting horns around 11:35?

Pt. 5- I loved that little line at the end of four and beggining of this movemnt! Death = Yummy

-

For me, you summoned Stravinsky's Firebird but left me with no pleasure that I usually find within it.

The music didn't move relatively with the rest of the piece. Towards the end I felt like you had called all your shots off and now its over. I unfortunately feel the same way about Stravinsky's pieces as well. For example I feel that the back half of The Rite Of Spring was quite boring when compared with the first.

-With a note on how I hear things and why they please me- (We are probably of varying opinions on this.)

When I listen to orchestral music I always find the open sounding slow movements to bring the most excitement not the sharp accented ones. I might be in the minority on this but, due to the carrying power of everyone doing legato open phrases vs. short accented phrases there is more to listen to and the sound is much richer and enticing.

I degress, now to put it in a fun little metaphor, "I like my choclate last."

-

Hopefully Provoking,

Karl

(P.S. Good Job with this piece. It was a beautiful piece of music to listen too.)

You know I have problems with 'atonal-esque' pieces in general, and my main concern with this piece is that it doesn't appear to be melodically driven (in the conventional sense). However, the effect you have created is fairly remarkable.

The first section really does stir me, it triggers something I can't quite put my finger on. I think its the fact that it's actually a scary piece of music to listen to, and I think that if this were performed by a live orchestra, would be even more so! I rarely find music 'scary' in this way without there being some kind of accompanying picture, and I think music generally doesn't trigger this particular emotion.

I think there are moments when you've gone too far in my opinion, but the second section to me sounds like a brilliantly successful orchestration of a gamelan orchestra. You've made fantastic use of the orchestra here no doubt. Was there some microtonality in this section or possibly the bit before?

As I said this is remarkable, however I am glad that I can return to the relative safety of Rachmaninov and co.!

Karl,

I do think that I agree with you (as with most people). At some point it goes on for too long. I mean I designed the form before anything else (the fractal, score already in) and followed to it 99.9%! If I was to compose this again (it's been 4-5 years since I composed it), I would stick to the form 60% and if so. Or change the form to begin with.

I was kinda "filling the gaps" later on in the piece. It simply can't work totally this way. Although I grew in love with the piece, when I was working on the recording. And in all honesty, I do think that a real orchestra would do more justice.

But it lingers on a lot, that's a "fact" for me, I think. And the tonality thing that LDun mentiones is also true, exactly because of that! I decided to stick to the plan, thus limiting myself to th egiven pitches then (and the lack of D I believe as the last pitch which is nowhere to be found ;)).

Yup, there is a small part from the Rite of Spring, you are right Karl. ;) It's noted in the score as well, if not mistaken. It is my way of saying "here you are! this is where I got most ideas!"

I hope newer pieces have overcome this obsession with form. At least I believe they have. Click on my profile and check the threads I've started for more music by me. (large forms and so on).

Alex,

I do know where you're coming from, so no worries! And I also love Rachmaninov (and his 2nd Symphnoy as well! :))

Yes, some scarey moments, certainly this would work better with a live orchestra (miles better in fact, since I did this in a studio, not my own home, and with various samples, collections of samples back in 2004. Back then I doubt there was anything staggering in terms of samples, at least except GOS, which is used actually. The rest are various solo stuff, various percussion, etc. All singled out! I ended up with A LOT of audio files to work with.)

No microtonality, no. Not in this piece at least. :)

Thanks for listening (take note, it was 2003-2004 when this was composed and recorded. Not now ;))

Oh wow it's so... um modern. :) Can't really listen to it, I prefer beautiful music. :( I'm looking at the score and I see that you have put a lot of effort into this piece. Actually it doesn't sound bad, you should see the stuff my composition teacher writes.

Nik believe me, I am incredibly musically stubborn, so the fact that I see a lot in this piece is a real achievement on your behalf I assure you!

I would love to see this performed by real musicians; even really good samples wouldn't quite do it justice.

There's so much going on here, I would have to listen to it many, many times before I understood exactly what was happening!

Oh wow it's so... um modern. :) Can't really listen to it, I prefer beautiful music. :( I'm looking at the score and I see that you have put a lot of effort into this piece. Actually it doesn't sound bad, you should see the stuff my composition teacher writes.

Hem...

Did you listen to the whole piece? (dejavu anyone? :D)

"Can't really listen to it, I prefer beautiful music". Beauty is totally subjective. I love a woman, you love another, other male love other males and other women love other women (or men). Some men love goats but that's the whole point! Everyone to their own.

It is not meant to be a beautiful piece really.

Thanks for posting and taking a look at the score. :)

Nik believe me, I am incredibly musically stubborn, so the fact that I see a lot in this piece is a real achievement on your behalf I assure you!

I would love to see this performed by real musicians; even really good samples wouldn't quite do it justice.

There's so much going on here, I would have to listen to it many, many times before I understood exactly what was happening!

LOL!

Thanks Alex!

It is a.... plethoric piece (is there such a word in English? Got it straight from Greek! ;))

Great piece. I agree that a real orchestra would be best, but I still enjoyed your mock-up. This is not usually my cup of tea for listening, but I thought it was very interesting and kept my attention the entire time. Very nice work Nikolas.

Steve Winkler

Thanks Steve. Glad you enjoyed it! A real orchestra would be better, no doubt in this case, since it's a peculiar piece, but the mock-up is not really unjust to the whole result, at least I tried my best... :)

Thanks Steve. Glad you enjoyed it! A real orchestra would be better, no doubt in this case, since it's a peculiar piece, but the mock-up is not really unjust to the whole result, at least I tried my best... :)

Absolutely agree. Nothing at all wrong with the mockup. I can't tell for sure what samples you're using, but I'm a GPO person myself. From my limited experience so far I have to use my imagination for things that get dense and complex. I suppose it's the nature of samples. What I was saying was I can easily hear this with real players and I think it would sound great.

One thing I did note though is the really high trumpet at the beginning. You probably know this, but I think a trumpet player would probably use a D or Eb trumpet on a part like that which would change the timbre somewhat but achieve the affect you're after. Just something I noticed as I glanced at the score occasionaly.

Steve Winkler

You are right about the trumpet. Back in 2003/2004 when I wrote this work, I didn't know that much about instrumentation, thus a few things are... difficult to play. (hope not impossible though... :D)

Actually, this work, as many others, is written in manuscript with a pencil and no piano next to me. I didn't listen to this piece, until the score was done, through in Finale and I entered the studio! So I had (and still do) to relly on my mind, my inner ears and my knowledge of music and what I do!

I REALLY enjoyed this piece! This is the first piece of yours I've heard Nikolas, but I think it is a fine example of well constructed, accessible, but also challenging music. Lots of interesting textures and in fact I felt it was a very "visual" piece - I could see it as a ballet.

One question, is it common convention to not show the full orchestra layout on page 1 and then start the optimized staves after page 1? I just find it confusing, because on page 1, I thought I saw the ensemble you were using, by page 5 I then thought that was the ensemble, by page 10, I then thought ahh- that is the ensemble, etc., etc.,...

Oh also, I thought it was a really good mockup.

I REALLY enjoyed this piece! This is the first piece of yours I've heard Nikolas, but I think it is a fine example of well constructed, accessible, but also challenging music. Lots of interesting textures and in fact I felt it was a very "visual" piece - I could see it as a ballet.

One question, is it common convention to not show the full orchestra layout on page 1 and then start the optimized staves after page 1? I just find it confusing, because on page 1, I thought I saw the ensemble you were using, by page 5 I then thought that was the ensemble, by page 10, I then thought ahh- that is the ensemble, etc., etc.,...

to answer your question: notational convention requires that page 1 contain all the staves for instruments used during the piece. However, no need to have two flute staves even if there will be two flutes. A single staff marked "flutes 1&2" or "2 flutes" (or how ever many you have in your score) will suffice. Likewise, a single staff marked "percussion" will do even for a score which contains a massive percussion section.

However, to be fair, SOME publishers eschew this convention as a space saving measure. It is, however, not a common practice, and one that should be discouraged as much as possible.

karelm: Thank you for listening, for appreciating and for commenting on the piece. There are many other pieces of mine in this forum, if you're interested! ;)

Now, onto your question. No, it's not the 'right' thing to do really, but I was really pressed for time. In the hard copies (printed), I did make an alternative file, with the first 2 pages fixed, in order to make it better, so the printed copies, do have the full orchestra in the first page. However, since it was two files and I didn't have acrobat pro, at the time when I was making the PDF files, found here, I was unable to combine the two files. And I couldn't figure out a way to do it in Finale...

So in my haste, I figured that, at least, you get the score (which has various errors, btw, notational mainly), along with the mp3. :-/

I did do my best for the mockup, but we are talking 2004 here, so it was a looooooooooong time ago and in a studio, not my computer, with various stuff. Not sure if VSL and EW existed back then (for the orchestral packs I mean, not the companies, I do know that EW is a hugely old company and kudos! :))

your music is very deeply affect on me

it is a very good music

darkprincess

Bravo! I loved it. Although I dont really adore mordernist music, but your piece really captivated me! thanks!