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Orchestration: PART 1 (woodwinds) discussion


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Guest QcCowboy

Anders asked:

Working now. I'm wondering, though, how do you create that trill with the b in Finale?

I won't be listening to the examples, just looking at them, so it's not so important....

however, if you have full version finale, it's an articulation, change the font to EngraverfontsExtras (make sure to choose "character" and not "shape") and the 4 trill symbols are there near the top of the list. There's a straight "tr", then trill flat, trill sharp and trill natural. Humanplayback recognizes them for playback, too, which is nice.

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Guest Anders
I won't be listening to the examples, just looking at them, so it's not so important....

however, if you have full version finale, it's an articulation, change the font to EngraverfontsExtras (make sure to choose "character" and not "shape") and the 4 trill symbols are there near the top of the list. There's a straight "tr", then trill flat, trill sharp and trill natural. Human playback recognizes them for playback, too, which is nice.

Oh, I won't be bothering with the symbol for this lesson. I just wondered how to create it as I had no idea it was possible in finale! Thanks for the info.

The second exercise is interesting and fun to ponder - working on it now. The complete homework will most likely be posted by tomorrow or the day after.

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Guest QcCowboy

DO take your time with these exercises, there's no hurry.

The longer you ponder them and consider possibilities, the better.

Don't try to go out of your way to be creative. That's not what this course is about. You're not trying to out-do each other with the most witty and avant-garde examples possible. I'm looking for good, solid and STANDARD orchestration. We'll get into the "creative" side of it later.

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Guest QcCowboy

it is your choice to write it in concert pitch or transposed.

if you are submitting a MIDI file of the exercise then concert is probably best. (I have no idea if MIDI files handle that sort of information well)

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Firstly, Thank you to our wonderful teacher.

Secondly, I need to buy an instrumentation book.

Thridly, I did my lesson and had fun with it.:thumbsup:

Finale 2007c - [ss].pdf

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Firstly, Thank you to our wonderful teacher.

Secondly, I need to buy an instrumentation book.

Thridly, I did my lesson and had fun with it.:happy:

comments:

first of all, thank-YOU. :P

excellent work.

the oboe part might be a TAD too high for the "weak range". we wouldn't want the oboist's lips to fall off either.

your combo theme is very nice. I believe it would work very well as long as you don't force the oboe to go too high.

your chord, on the other hand... yes it would be shrill... but I'd like something a little more complete.

could you re-set a 3-note chord, major or minor?

and use more than 4 instruments. remember, now we have access to a symphony orchestra (woodwinds listed above).

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Here are my excercises. I'm not sure I did the second one right though. :happy:

Alex

that was fine for the lay-out, I'm only looking, not listening for now.

nice short theme. cor anglais and bassoon will make a VERY "reedy" sound. but It should work beautifully.

your chord I'm a bit less convinced of, however.

notice that you're doubling all the most prominant woodwinds together in the same register: flutes, oboe and clarinets. there's nothing patently wrong with the chord, I can definately see its use in an orchestral context.

I would have prefered something a little more "traditionally" orchestrated :P

care to give it another go? with a 3-note chord (either major or minor as per the instructions))

don't worry, we'll get LOTS of chances to try more of this anyways as we go along.

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Here are my exercises.

I didn't do the clarinet in exercise 1 because, as you said, it has dynamic control in all registers.

In exercise 2 I was going for something bouncy, happy, and I imagine the strings pizzicato in the background, playing happy bouncy chords, possibly major ninths.

In exercise 3 I was going for something calm, and peaceful, so I used a major seventh, putting the B in the clarinets so it didn't stick out like it would in the oboes, or in the soprano or bass. I only used standard orchestral winds, non of the extras.

Thanks so much for doing this Michel, I've enjoyed doing these, and look forward to the next lesson :happy:

Exercise 1.pdf

Exercise 2.pdf

Exercise 3.pdf

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Guest QcCowboy

excellent work Mark.

remember guys (and any gals I might not recognize because of the gender-neutrailty of screen names here!), we are exploring, and I want you to learn as many "tricks of the trade" as possible.

I'm going to add a little "interlude" lesson I hadn't thought of before we continue.

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Exercises in attatchments.

Exercise 1.pdf

Exercise 2.pdf

Exercise 3.pdf

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very good David.

I notice a lot of you are choosing to go the "nasal" route with your melodic combinations :happy:

lots of oboe/bassoon combos.

David, I think that your chord might end up sounding a bit thin, you heavily emphasized the tonic of the chord. If this is what you wanted, then it IS your choice. As I said, outside of actual performing impossibilities, there are no "wrong" choices. There are weaker and stronger choices, but gradually you'll get the hang of those.

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I notice a lot of you are choosing to go the "nasal" route with your melodic combinations :happy:

As I have some spare time on my hands, can I try exercise 2 again, trying out different feels?

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Guest QcCowboy

absolutely.

I don't want anyone to feel limited by these exercises.

Do the exercises as I ask them, but DO try things as well.

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I decided to try and apply all that we've done in this lesson to a short phrase for standard wind section. The latest addition to the lesson was quite enlightening, thanks Michel :)

Phrase in D minor.pdf

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Guest QcCowboy

very good Mark... even if you ARE getting ahead of us with this :)

one thing I'd ahve suggested doing differently is instead of unison doubling the clarinets, why not in thirds, so one doubles the flute at the octave and the other does the harmony?

another thing to watch for is that the oboes in sustained notes will be a bit more pungeant than you might want... I'd have prefered oboe/cor anglais doubling the flute with clarinets in sustained notes.

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Thanks for taking a look, and for increasing my confidence with woodwinds, which this lesson certainly has done :( I look forward to the next installment :)

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first of all, thank-YOU. :(

excellent work.

the oboe part might be a TAD too high for the "weak range". we wouldn't want the oboist's lips to fall off either.

your combo theme is very nice. I believe it would work very well as long as you don't force the oboe to go too high.

your chord, on the other hand... yes it would be shrill... but I'd like something a little more complete.

could you re-set a 3-note chord, major or minor?

and use more than 4 instruments. remember, now we have access to a symphony orchestra (woodwinds listed above).

Here is something a bit more complete. I listed only certain instruments before because of what lesson 1 and two entitled and got lazy on the last one :). Here it is.

What did you mean by re-set a three note chord? I think I failed in that case....I used a 1-5-9 Chord clashing the two and the one in my thing. Its my favorite chord. =)

Finale 2008 - [dd].pdf

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Here is something a bit more complete. I listed only certain instruments before because of what lesson 1 and two entitled and got lazy on the last one :). Here it is.

What did you mean by re-set a three note chord? I think I failed in that case....I used a 1-5-9 Chord clashing the two and the one in my thing. Its my favorite chord. =)

I wanted just a simple 3-note major or minor chord, "orchestrated" using the woodwind section.

here is your chance to start using the woodwinds of a symphony, we have access to the whole thing for this course :(

it's time to start breaking free from using single instruments.

I think your chord will have a very beautiful sound... but I'm afraid it might not quite give the result you are expecting: "airy and relaxed".

More on this later...

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very good David.

I notice a lot of you are choosing to go the "nasal" route with your melodic combinations :)

lots of oboe/bassoon combos.

David, I think that your chord might end up sounding a bit thin, you heavily emphasized the tonic of the chord. If this is what you wanted, then it IS your choice. As I said, outside of actual performing impossibilities, there are no "wrong" choices. There are weaker and stronger choices, but gradually you'll get the hang of those.

I guess I didn't like the sound of the chord when there was more of the third. And I love the sound of the oboe and the bassoon--especially up high. Only reason I like Le Sacre du printemps. :(

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This can't be said enough. Thank you, Qc, for the time and effort that you have put into this class and the community at large.

Praise aside, attached are my excercises.

A couple notes:

-The filenames of the pictures should tell you which excercise is which. (In case it doesn't, the order

is Flute-Strong, Flute-Weak, Oboe-Strong, Oboe-Weak, Clarinet, Bassoon-Strong, Bassoon-Weak, Excercise 2, Excercise 3.)

-Although the clarinet part in my excercise can be considered strong and weak (keeping in mind the clarinet has complete dynamic control), I'd like to point out that, despite this fact, the throat tones can be hesitant. In addition, the part could also be considered weak in terms of playability, due to crossing the break (though really a microscopic weakness)

-In the 4 bar phrase, I paired the Clarinet and Bassoon, using the weak (almost humorous) range of the Bassoon. My intention was to convey a joking mood.

-And lastly, the E major chord. All of the instruments are doubled (incl. the Bassoon). I used the weak registers of all the intruments, except for the flutes, to convey a light, airy, fragile mood. I tried to emphasize the 3rd of the chord in Fl. II and Cl. I.

Thank you for your time.

(And you may refer to me as Luke, if you wish)

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Guest QcCowboy

thank-you Luke, very well done.

I think almost everyone has handed in the exercises now... so I may as well add a little note.

The little melody that I asked you to place in each instrument had a little trap built in: the trill. I'm glad to see that no one fell for it. That trill, in the clarinet, could very easily have landed right ON the break, making for very awkward fingering.

Just to speak quickly about the break: I don't believe you should make a big case out of it. For beginner clarinetists it is a fingering and tone quality issue, however, for good players it is a non-issue. Obviously, a trill across that break does make for awkward fingering, no matter the technical level of the musician.

I'm going to ask for a bit of patience as I prepare the next set of exercises.

So keep at it, and ask any questions you might have I will answer them and incorporate them into the course if necessary.

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I'm going to ask for a bit of patience as I prepare the next set of exercises.

Hey everyone - time to do extra credit! :huh:

Should we continue orchestrating simple phrases like Mark did while we wait?

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