Op. 4, Symphony in C Minor

Hi all,

I recently wrote an introduction thread at http://www.youngcomposers.com/forum/Introd...arey-t1526.html but I usually find that these threads tend to fade off into oblivion. So here, I am introducing myself but posting my 1st symphony in c minor. I feel that this piece is quite immature in many ways compared to my later pieces, as a wrote it quite a few years ago, but people generally tend to like it.

Overall, I feel that this piece is the best starting point in introducing myself as a composer.

1. Adagio - Allegro

2. Andante espressivo

3. Allegro molto con brio

4. Adagio - Maestoso

If you are interested in hearing more of my music, please visit the thread I posted or my website.

Best regards,

John Carey

www.johncareycompositions.com

I am writing this as I listen to your mp3 of the C minor Symphony second movement: it truly is beautiful, and I'm amazed you wrote it at 16: you will certainly be held with regard here at YC (may I tell you you're one of the best I've seen around here.)

Thank you for your kind words. I am very happy that you enjoyed it!

Best regards,

John Carey

Holy @#% you ain't kidding buddy, you say th 2nd movement makes people cry I'm ready to cry from the first one that I'm listening to right now. This is remarkable work, quite amazing! Funny, the FIRST thing that popped into my head was "is this guy Russian?" because it has that Rachmaninoff tone of pessimistic melancholy of the Russian countryside, and then I click on your link and you say Rach is one of your biggest influences.

I'm still downloading your second movement now cus I'm on a 56k and it takes a while but this first movement is absolutely incredible! Very moving. I'm definitely going to have to listen to this all day long now and study it in my mind. In fact, honestly I'm a little scared to listen to your 2nd movement now because if this one moved me so much I don't want to break down like a little baby in the 2nd.

Before I go on, a few questions if you don't mind: I too use GPO, I am curious how you got yours to sound so utterly realistic, do you tool around in cubase, etc? Can you go into some detail about how you use GPO because you got an incredible sound out of it whereas I mostly just plug the things in because I don't know how to fool around with it that much. Please please please tell me about your techniques in ensemble building etc, and what reverb did you use church? Or a custom maybe?

Also, did you use some things that are not in GPO, I don't recall that drum in there unless they released a new patch or something or maybe I am wrong because I haven't used the timpani sample much yet.

This could very well be the best thing I've heard on this forum yet and I am glad you have joined, I feel honored being in the company of such incredibly talented prodigies (you, nico, j. lee, et al) whose genius absolutely blows my meager allowance out of the sky.

Please write some more about the piece and its conception, I would be very interested in hearing. Like I said I can't write too much more yet because the 2nd movement is still 30% downloading and I honestly don't think I can say anything bad about this bloody 1st movement though I am trying to think real hard to give at least SOME criticism.

Jesus, I'm listening to it again, how the hell did you get your GPO to sound so good? I mean I know it's possible because some of the guys at the GPO forums over at northernsounds have made demos comparing a gpo recordin to a real orchestra and it was impossible to tell the difference in some of them, but they use some advanced techniques that are really over my head.

Well, I cannot say too much more right now, this is a masterpiece what can I say I have no negative comments apart from I wish that the first movement built up the dramatic arc even more and kind of exploded at the climax of it but I understand that wasn't your full intention and so I must accept that. And some parts I felt weren't as rich orchestrally as I would like and felt a little flat such as the segment that appears at 6:31 in the major key, apart from the woodwinds and drums it sounds almost like just the violins playing the melody and bass under them and that's it, it would be better and more rich if violins 2 and/or violas etc played a countermelody or some contrapuntal passages underneath that to give the violin passage more drama but I could be wrong.

I will definitely check out your website.

p.s. were you really 16 when you composed this?

I thought you were considered rude, arrogant, and offensive here too Nico, so what's the difference?

j/k lol, yea I probably will end up not liking anymore of John Carey's work because I see from his other thread that he is a big fan of music that absolutely disgusts me such as Sorabji, and that ilk and I realize this symphony is an 'early' work of his and that's probably the reason for its awesome tonality but Carey's newer works are probably more atonal and in the 'contemporary' style. I can't judge them yet I still will give them a chance but I am really not a big fan of contemporary music and see little merit in it unfortunately.

p.s. I finally downloaded the 2nd, 3rd , and 4th movements and am eager to hear them but don't have time right now so I'll try to post later about it.

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John I must say I just listened to your 2nd movement and the opening melody had me in absolute goosebumps all over my body. I listened to it before but didn't have time to comment and I was moved but still liked the first movement better but it's funny how when you put it into context it gave it that much more meaning. When you said it was written because you were in deep love at the time, I listened to it again in that light, and thought of my own memories of love and the work made much more sense to me and really touched me alot more than it had originally. It sounds almost like a mix of Tchaikovsky, Elgar, John Williams (star wars soundtrack? force theme etc? lol).

Very moving.

So, do you mind saying what your orchestration is for this symphony?

Also, I noticed on your website there is alot of work listed that is not for download, I was very excited at the prospect of a piano concerto from you but I'm assuming that means that those are all planned works...? Or did you not orchestrate them yet or what? Because it seems you have quite a few other symphonies and piano concerti on there that I would really like to hear.

Oh and about Sorabji honestly I only heard a little bit of the Clavicembalisticum or whatever the hell it's called a long time ago and I don't know who it was by, but I guess there's only like 3 or 4 recordings of it? In all actuality like I said I don't know much about Sorabji and probabyl shouldn't have picked him out of the crowd since I haven't heard much of him but I just meant to use him as an example of all the modern composers ala Schonberg, Messeian, etc that I have no taste for.

Also, about the GPO stuff, are you saying that you basically didn't fool around with GPO that much and you just played it cold? Or did you at least tweak around for a bit with somethings in another program maybe?? Or is the reverb basically the only thing you tweaked? It's a very nice reverb, I knew it was custom because it's a little more reverby than concert hall yet not as much as church so I figured you found something in between, and I agree I use concert hall 1, that's the best one but haven't tooled around with it much but seeing the effect you got I think I will try to next time.

By the way are you in any way related to Mariah Carey? :thumbsup:

So, do you mind saying what your orchestration is for this symphony?

Not at all:

2 Flutes

2 Oboes

2 Clarinets

2 Bassoons

4 French horns

4 Trumpets

4 Trombones

Timpani

Cymbals

Snare Drum

Harp (or piano, preferably harp)

Violins

Violas

Cellos

Double bass

Also, I noticed on your website there is alot of work listed that is not for download, I was very excited at the prospect of a piano concerto from you but I'm assuming that means that those are all planned works...? Or did you not orchestrate them yet or what? Because it seems you have quite a few other symphonies and piano concerti on there that I would really like to hear.

I have written all of these, but still have to transfer many of them into my computer and make GPO recordings, which, for me, has always been a very tedious process. I have midis of some of them, but I wouldn't want to subject you to that!

I've been working on the piano concerto lately, and have much work left, however I do have a sample of the 3rd movement toccata right here - http://www.johncareycompositions.com/compo...concerto1-3.mp3

It may not seem like much work to finish these things, considering that I've already written them, but keep in mind that I also practice piano for 5 to 6 hours on average!

Oh and about Sorabji honestly I only heard a little bit of the Clavicembalisticum or whatever the hell it's called a long time ago and I don't know who it was by, but I guess there's only like 3 or 4 recordings of it? In all actuality like I said I don't know much about Sorabji and probabyl shouldn't have picked him out of the crowd since I haven't heard much of him but I just meant to use him as an example of all the modern composers ala Schonberg, Messeian, etc that I have no taste for.

Don't worry, that's what happens to most people. There are 2 recordings, Madge and Ogdon, and they both are terribly inaccurate and make the music sound like trash. If you're interested, I could send you some of Sorabji's shorter works, which have been recorded by excellent pianists, and are, in fact, wonderful works. Most of Sorabji's music, the OC included, are tonal, so they are not really like Schonberg at all.

Also, about the GPO stuff, are you saying that you basically didn't fool around with GPO that much and you just played it cold? Or did you at least tweak around for a bit with somethings in another program maybe?? Or is the reverb basically the only thing you tweaked? It's a very nice reverb, I knew it was custom because it's a little more reverby than concert hall yet not as much as church so I figured you found something in between, and I agree I use concert hall 1, that's the best one but haven't tooled around with it much but seeing the effect you got I think I will try to next time.

No, I did everything purely in GPO. I tweaked reverb a bit, but not much.

By the way are you in any way related to Mariah Carey?

Not that I know of, but I could be!

Best regards,

John Carey

RequiemAeternam, here are two short samples of Sorabji's music, if you're interested. I have a feeling you'll like it, especially if you like Ravel, Debussy, or Scriabin -

Fantasie Espagnole

Le Jardin Parfume

The Andante is deeply romantic, something i do not see much in this young composer forum, most people stick to Classical style, or atonal, modern style, that's something i do not understand, the fact is that the best symphonic music come from the late romantic style, and you have done an excellent job, i have only one advice for you, write more symphonies!

that's something i do not understand, the fact is that the best symphonic music come from the late romantic style,

Just curious where did you get this "fact" lol? I would place the symphonies of Haydn, Mozart, and Beethoven before those of Mahler or any other "late romantic" any day... (other than Brahms naturally since his 4 symphonies I consider the 4 greatest ever written, but only because they take advantage of classical ideals)

However, I do have to say that I am hoping to sometime try to at least give Mahler's symphonies a chance, just haven't gotten around to listening to them that much. What do you recommend a good starting point since you're probably a Mahler expert?

Let me just say though Mahlertitan, that despite my questioning of your 'fact' (simply for the reason that one shouldn't go around stating opinion as fact) I do agree with you on the premise that a romantic STYLE symphony has the POTENTIAL to be more powerful and more moving to me than a classical one, however I simply think (and obviously this is my opinion) that there are no romantic symphonies other than Brahms that stand up to the best of the classical symphonies simply due to late romantic composers not being as good as the masters before them.

However, to answer your question, the reason I think alot of people here (including myself) write in the classical style is quite simple: because it's easy and writing a romantic symphony is too difficult for most people to attempt because the vast scope of such a work is daunting. Yes that's a challenge to everyone listening lol, I would love to see someone attempt a Brahmsian or Mahlerian type symphony and I view it as an ultimate goal of mine to make such an attempt, however for now, I dabble in classical idiom to work on my technique simply because it's the easiest like I said.

With classical works we can work on traditional SATB 4 part writing in the common orchestration of violin 1, 2, viola, cello/basses, but look at a symphony of Brahms for example, violins 1, 2, 3, viola, cello, basses, is not uncommon, add on top of that clarinet, bassoon, oboe, flute, trumpets, horns, trombones, timpani, triangle and maybe a few other things I've left out. This is a far more daunting task and I doubt most people are willing to attempt such a scale, but obviously the most difficult things usually (though not always) hold the greatest rewards.

Thank you very much, Mahlertitan, for your comments.

I, for one, consider Mahler to be one of the greatest (if not the greatest, by my standards at least) symphonists who ever lived. I would suggest that you listen to his "Titan" symphony (No. 1). It's incredible! Some of his stuff gets a bit tedious, but the Titan symphony is easy to listen to and appreciate without having to be a "Mahler expert."

I agree, however, that one should not state their opinions as facts.

oh I almost forgot to comment on your concerto, I downloaded before when I seen you post a piece but completely forgot to listen to it. So I just did. For some reason the recording quality wasn't that good, seems like it's in the distance or something and I can't hear the details as well as I'd like but I really enjoyed the orchestration, it seems like a huge step up from this symphony. Very rich and more independent orchestration. If anything seemed immature of your symphony it was the relatively simplistic orchestration and interweaving lines which in the concerto clip are really top notch though I really wish I could hear them better it's all muddled and sounds distant like a really old recording for some reason.

Definitely must admit I enjoyed it a lot more than I thought I would (when I thought you were an atonalist) but this is strictly tonal work and very exciting at that. Really gets your pulse racing and builds up a good dramatic arc.

I keep listening to it again and keep marvelling at the apparent excellent orchestration (reason I say apparent is like I said the recording quality seems sketchy). The part starting at about 00:50 seconds into it is really moving and then the piano cuts it off again, very exciting.

Care to post the orchestration of this piece? Is it basically the same as the symphony?

By the way I should say I can relate to where you're coming from when you said you practice 5-6 hours a day and have to try to compose in between that somewhere. I too practice exactly 5-6 hours right now sometimes 7-8 and have to fit in composing in there so progress is slow for now.

Do you go to school or work etc? Just curious, though I understand if you're unwilling to divulge that personal info since I saw on your website you seem to be especially hesitant to disclose any personal info for some reason. I guess that is understandable though personally I'm not sure why you would be so afraid to reveal yourself to the world if your ultimate goal is to reveal yourself in a sense anyway through your music (assuming that your goal IS to get your music performed and heard in the world which I assume it is considering you're on a message board advertising it etc).

But anyhow, I am just always curious what other composes like myself are currently doing in life.

Anyhow, any chance you have some more orchestral works to listen to? Am really interested in hearing more of your things, tomorrow I plan to download the rest of the stuff on your site like the piano preludes I believe they are, I just don't have the time right now and it usually takes me a while to download cus I am on a 56k at the moment.

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Only one that is worth mentioning, which I finished quite recently.

In due time, Mr. Canzano. It's still in manuscript form, since I haven't put it into my computer yet, and it will still need some revisions. I'll have it up here eventually, though.

Any idea why your mp3s won't load for me? When I click on the link to your webpage, a page full of ads, but that says 'John Carey Compositions' at the top, pops up. There are no downloads. Have any idea what this is about? I'd really like to hear your works. You could always e-mail them to me at Nickthoven@yahoo.com if you do not know what this problem with your webpage is.

For some reason, unknown to me, even though I paid for another year's subscription, Shyper shut down my website. I am trying to get this fixed; sorry for the inconvenience.

Best regards,

John Carey

Oh, ok. Shall you send me them or shall I wait?

Let's try waiting. If things work out the way I hope it will, then everything should be back up in a day or so.

Carey I find your situation quite interesting from the hints that you've dropped, because it seems peculiarly similar to my own. You might be ill at ease in disclosing your situation and if my assumptions are correct it might be due to slight shame in your unique situation but I'm not saying that to make fun but on the contrary to let you know that if your situation is indeed similar to my own you have nothing to be ashamed of. I don't expect you to reply (unless you want to by private message) but I for one haven't the slightest care or concern for what people out in the world think or know about me, in fact it only gives me an ego boost to hear people speak of me good or bad. And so in light of that I wanted to tell you a little about my own situation so that perhaps in the event that it contains any similarities to your own, it may offer some solace to you if you are in fact feeling down about your own situation.

I know the music community can often be elitist and look down upon people of 'lower standing' (whatever that means), especially composers who are invariably seen as having to be the proverbial graduate students at a prestigious conservatory of a certain esteemed stature and careful luxuriant upbringing. The popular image can certainly make a few of us feel uneasy, for instance most of my non-musical friends have an image of the composer as a highly cultured, impeccable, and 'untouchable' sort of individual whose roots are of a similar vein.

In fact, most of my friends don't even know the difference between a composer and a conductor. A few of the ones I've told about my desire to become a composer told me they couldn't picture me "standing in a tuxedo on a podium in front of the orchestra waving my hands." But, anyway, I digress a bit.

My point is that, for me personally composition and music itself has been a long and arduous path through life's worst. I too am not attending college at the moment and am 23 years old, though I have finally applied just recently. After highschool I was basically kicked out of my house and forced to get an apartment on my own in Brooklyn. I worked full time supermarket jobs all while self-teaching myself to play the piano and compose. I've only been at it for a few years now but already I have had numerous unavoidable pauses in my pursuit due to the necessities of life. For example the entire first half of 2005, I was unable to study nor practice the piano as I was forced to work 2 jobs due to my near poverty level financial situation. One was a full time butcher shop job somewhere in a gang neighborhood in sunset park and another in a supermarket part time at night. I've been on my own in this manner since I was 19, but finally this year I couldn't take it anymore and decided to at least attempt a change and gave up my jobs and my apartment and moved in with my sister in Brooklyn but ended up staying at my parents in NJ which is where I reside at the moment. I decided to finally give college a chance and have applied like I said so maybe things will begin to change for me but I still have my doubts. My point in telling you that little story is for you and maybe others out there to know that there are other people in this world pursuing their dreams under unthinkable conditions and I suppose there is a light at the end of the tunnel. I suppose only perseverance and the tenacity that enabled me to cling to my dream got me to where I am today. And 'where I am' is really no where, as I have very little to show for myself at the moment, but one would be a fool to conclude that I have completely wasted my time because I have been studying and practicing as much as I could and my level of composition is beyond that of the few friends that I know that ARE or HAVE graduated college with composition degrees already. And I am completely self taught of only a few years and so for that I am proud and no one can tell me the time was completely wasted. For the past 4 years I basically lived like a homeless bum making at times only 200-300$ a month to survive and pay 650$ rent and 300-400$ of other monthly bills and food. I had completely given up my 'social life' in order to just try to study and practice as much as I could in the free time that I had because I knew that the longer I put off studying and spent time hanging out, the longer it would be until my goals are fullfilled and consequently the longer it will be that I spend living in poverty.

So, like I said, I just wanted to share that little story for you or any others who may have been, may be in now, or may at some point in there life be in such a situation. Don't be ashamed or embarrassed and don't feel alone because there are others out there who similarly struggle. As for school, it is a great benefit and will expedite the process of learning but don't feel bad if you're unable to go and recall that most of the great composers were largely self taught anyway.

Also I found it interesting that you too seem to compose on manuscript too as I do away from the aid of machines. Not many do that anymore.

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