Suggestions for Solo Instrument and Organ Composition

Hello everybody. I'm about to start writing a duet for organ and another solo instrument. I'd like to ask for suggestions regarding what solo instrument would best complement the organ. Thanks. :D

The only piece for organ and solo instrument I know of is The Hollow Men for Trumpet and Organ by Persichetti

Canadian trombonist Alain Trudel put out a record of organ/trombone duets: Art of the Trombone. The Holst duet sticks out at particularly good...

...

If it was up to me, I would do something odd, like marimba and organ, or possibly vibraphone, or bassoon, just something you wouldn't think of, for the fun of it.. However, I think the best instruments would be those that have the capacity to fill a hall just in the way that an organ does, and any brass instrument has just that.

I have heard a violin, a flute, and a recorder each played with organ before, but they don't have as much carrying power as compared to the organ, so either they get drowned out or the organ has to play extra quiet, so only a few stops can be used at one time without things getting too loud. Of course, I depends on the sound you want, you can do whatever you want.

Most organs have a decently realistic clarinet stop, so if your solo instrument was a clarinet, you could create some fairly pretty sounds, almost emulating a clarinet choir with a solo. :toothygrin:

I recommend a brass instrument - trumpet, trombone or horn would work particularly well I think.

Am I the only one that feels that the trombone is a horrible solo instrument? I cringe when I hear the word ''trombone'' in conjunction with the word concerto/duet/sonata, trombone trombonerytropmbontrtome...!!!! Heck, even the word is annoying!

Recently I heard 3 trombone concerti by a trio of excellent Norwegian composers, and I just wanted the trombonist (a plump, middle-aged man) to go away so that I could listen properly to the beautiful orchestration!!

Well, what compliment's it the best can vary depending on the direction you are taking the piece. You know?

Have you thought of what mood or anything the piece would be in?

Don't forget the multitude of colors the organ can produce, some call it the acoustical predecessor of the modern synthesizer because it can combine and mix so many colors into one beautiful conglomerate of sound. So no matter what solo instrument you choose, you can usually find a combination of stops on the organ which will result in a tone the best compliments the soloist. If you haven't, listen to some good organ music... dig into to some Bach. If you don't have too much available, check it out on YouTube, it'll give you a great idea of the organs capabilities, and while you listen, you can imagine in your head a solo instruments, try and decide which you think would work the best.

By the way, I advise you write for trombone just to spite Anders. No... better yet, period instruments.... the sackbut. :toothygrin:

Try the Horn.

Well, what compliment's it the best can vary depending on the direction you are taking the piece. You know?

Have you thought of what mood or anything the piece would be in?

I've started drafting the piece out and the idea as of this point is that the first section is baroque sounding, kinda like a prelude and fugue in the beginning then modulating into a middle rhapsodic section using whole tone, chromatic and octatonic scales with hints of pantonality. I'm thinking that the piece should end by modulating it back into the tonal realm with a majestic sounding fugue. At this point, the solo instrument I'm thinking about is the cello since I like the cello's tone and wide range. Do you think a cello can carry through without being drowned out? :unsure:

Don't forget the multitude of colors the organ can produce, some call it the acoustical predecessor of the modern synthesizer because it can combine and mix so many colors into one beautiful conglomerate of sound. So no matter what solo instrument you choose, you can usually find a combination of stops on the organ which will result in a tone the best compliments the soloist. If you haven't, listen to some good organ music... dig into to some Bach. If you don't have too much available, check it out on YouTube, it'll give you a great idea of the organs capabilities, and while you listen, you can imagine in your head a solo instruments, try and decide which you think would work the best.

By the way, I advise you write for trombone just to spite Anders. No... better yet, period instruments.... the sackbut. :toothygrin:

I might try searching on YouTube as the record stores in my location suck big time :angry:. I'm still looking for some more organ works to listen to. I'd like to get my hands on some recordings of Messiaen organ compositions but I can't get any here in the Philippines. I have been listening to Bach though.

If I were to carry through the idea of having a cellist duel with the organ, would it be a good idea to limit the registration of the great manual to a maximum of an 8' principal plus a mixture or a 4' flute stop then limit the dynamics on the swell and choir manuals?

Don't forget the multitude of colors the organ can produce, some call it the acoustical predecessor of the modern synthesizer because it can combine and mix so many colors into one beautiful conglomerate of sound. So no matter what solo instrument you choose, you can usually find a combination of stops on the organ which will result in a tone the best compliments the soloist. If you haven't, listen to some good organ music... dig into to some Bach. If you don't have too much available, check it out on YouTube, it'll give you a great idea of the organs capabilities, and while you listen, you can imagine in your head a solo instruments, try and decide which you think would work the best.

By the way, I advise you write for trombone just to spite Anders. No... better yet, period instruments.... the sackbut. :toothygrin:

I might try searching on YouTube as the record stores in my location suck big time :angry:. I'm still looking for some more organ works to listen to. I'd like to get my hands on some recordings of Messiaen organ compositions but I can't get any here in the Philippines. I have been listening to Bach though.

If I were to carry through the idea of having a cello duel with the organ, would it be a good idea to limit the registration of the great manual to a maximum of an 8' principal plus a mixture or a 4' flute stop then limit the dynamics on the swell and choir manuals (via the swell pedal)?

It might also be a good idea to write for a stroh cello as the other instrument so I've got a string instrument with some of the horn's power :toothygrin:

If you choose the right registrations a cello will certainly work. (Your suggestion should work, but I'm rather unexperienced in organ registration. In middle to high registers a cello played forte does have quite some carrying power, so you don't have to limit yourself too much. Having some variation in registration during a piece can be very nice. Do you have access to an organ to try things out?) It also should depend a lot on the build of the individual organ, and the density of the organ part.

Also, if you want to write a fugue, it might even be an advantage if the different voices don't blend in perfectly, as in a fugue it is generally desired to be able to hear individual voices rather than just a single big sound. A cello might work well in this respect.

There's quite a bit of organ music by Messiaen on youtube too by the way.

If you choose the right registrations a cello will certainly work. (Your suggestion should work, but I'm rather unexperienced in organ registration. In middle to high registers a cello played forte does have quite some carrying power, so you don't have to limit yourself too much. Having some variation in registration during a piece can be very nice. Do you have access to an organ to try things out?) It also should depend a lot on the build of the individual organ, and the density of the organ part.

Also, if you want to write a fugue, it might even be an advantage if the different voices don't blend in perfectly, as in a fugue it is generally desired to be able to hear individual voices rather than just a single big sound. A cello might work well in this respect.

There's quite a bit of organ music by Messiaen on youtube too by the way.

No, I don't have any access to a real organ at present (I'm trying to approximate the registrations with my synth while I compose, which is a poor substitute compared to having the real thing). Probably the closest thing I could get to a real organ is an old Hammond at the Church I go to (which is a different creature by itself having only 2 manuals, pedal, and a one-octave mini-manual for the carillon), which unfortunately I cannot try on due to various reasons. Most of my ideas regarding registration are purely speculative and I hope they do work (though someone with some considerable experience might have better ideas than mine). Oh well, thanks for the suggestions. You guys are really helping me a lot. :)

Without access to a real organ your task becomes even harder. As an organist, I wouldnt recommend using the great with a solo instrument as it is possibly loud enough to 'over blow' the solo. I would recommend using the swell or choir depending on the solo line (positif or schwellerwerk on a German organ, or the Recit on a French organ), both are also expressive so you can get crescendoa and diminuendo effects. These manuals provide softer flues, strings and reeds. Using the Diapson chorus on the great isnt ideal. To get an idea of what induvidual stops sound like, here is a link: Encyclopedia of Organ Stops but you will need to have some idea of what you want first.

If you do use a cello, (or a viole de gambe, which is also an organ stop), I would try 8' Gedakt and 4' Stopped Flute on the Swell, but try to avoid gap registrations (eg: 8' and 1 1/3') as they begin to separate at about tenor c. Another idea would be a 4' principal on the choir and a gemshorn, but it is all down to preference. You should also try experimenting with string stops. And remember: never mix types of stops. (unless it is a baroque peice which requires a reed, then you also want an 8' flue on the same division).

Without access to a real organ your task becomes even harder. As an organist, I wouldnt recommend using the great with a solo instrument as it is possibly loud enough to 'over blow' the solo. I would recommend using the swell or choir depending on the solo line (positif or schwellerwerk on a German organ, or the Recit on a French organ), both are also expressive so you can get crescendoa and diminuendo effects. These manuals provide softer flues, strings and reeds. Using the Diapson chorus on the great isnt ideal. To get an idea of what induvidual stops sound like, here is a link: Encyclopedia of Organ Stops but you will need to have some idea of what you want first.

If you do use a cello, (or a viole de gambe, which is also an organ stop), I would try 8' Gedakt and 4' Stopped Flute on the Swell, but try to avoid gap registrations (eg: 8' and 1 1/3') as they begin to separate at about tenor c. Another idea would be a 4' principal on the choir and a gemshorn, but it is all down to preference. You should also try experimenting with string stops. And remember: never mix types of stops. (unless it is a baroque peice which requires a reed, then you also want an 8' flue on the same division).

Thanks for the tips Tim. So it seems to be a bad idea using the great along with the solo. I probably might make use of the swell and choir manuals more in my piece then. I have some more questions though (as I'm clearly ignorant of the organ making me tread uncharted waters so to speak):

1. Is it possible to set the great to a solo stop (maybe a stop that isn't that loud so that another solo instrument could play along) instead of the diapason chorus?

2. Is it a good idea to make use of the pedals along with the solo instrument (probably register the pedals as thinly as possible)?

I'll be checking out the site you gave me as well so it would give me a better perspective. Thanks again .:)

1) It depends on the stop list on the organ. If I were using the organ that I play, I would use the 8' Stopped Diapason and 4' Wald Flute on the great (though these are not solo stops). Solo stops are generally soft, and the flues described as liquid and you will get a nice sound. If I were using the Swell, which is probably your best decision, I would go for 8' Gedakt, 8' Gamba and 8' Voix Celeste; and for a more 'twinkly' sound: 8' Gedakt, 4' Stopped Flute and 1 1/3' Larigot, but dont use the bass too much as the sound can separate.

2) It can be: It just depends on the solo piece, and your preferences.

It is possible to couple the Swell manual and Pedals togeather with the 'Swell to Pedal' Coupler. In the baroque period, the pedal registration would mimik the Manual regestration but an octave lower (for the swell registrations I gave: 16' Sub Bass [or Soubasse] and 8' Flute; and for the second: 16' Bourdon and 8' Flute). However you can go for something really contrasting and use it only where it suits, even a reed. And dont forget, the pedal division is unexpressive; it stays loud.

Let get my Audsley too look up some nice ranks:

Dulciana could be nice, and maybe Clarabella (if the organ isnt very well maintained, dont use it).

Gemshorn, but that is generally on the choir.

Do you have a stop list for an organ near you? That would really help me in assisting your stop selection so I know what to work with. If not, do you know what style of organ it is because that affects the stop selection severly, and if possible what temperment (style of tuning)?

Hope I have been some more use,

Tim

1) It depends on the stop list on the organ. If I were using the organ that I play, I would use the 8' Stopped Diapason and 4' Wald Flute on the great (though these are not solo stops). Solo stops are generally soft, and the flues described as liquid and you will get a nice sound. If I were using the Swell, which is probably your best decision, I would go for 8' Gedakt, 8' Gamba and 8' Voix Celeste; and for a more 'twinkly' sound: 8' Gedakt, 4' Stopped Flute and 1 1/3' Larigot, but dont use the bass too much as the sound can separate.

2) It can be: It just depends on the solo piece, and your preferences.

It is possible to couple the Swell manual and Pedals togeather with the 'Swell to Pedal' Coupler. In the baroque period, the pedal registration would mimik the Manual regestration but an octave lower (for the swell registrations I gave: 16' Sub Bass [or Soubasse] and 8' Flute; and for the second: 16' Bourdon and 8' Flute). However you can go for something really contrasting and use it only where it suits, even a reed. And dont forget, the pedal division is unexpressive; it stays loud.

Let get my Audsley too look up some nice ranks:

Dulciana could be nice, and maybe Clarabella (if the organ isnt very well maintained, dont use it).

Gemshorn, but that is generally on the choir.

Do you have a stop list for an organ near you? That would really help me in assisting your stop selection so I know what to work with. If not, do you know what style of organ it is because that affects the stop selection severly, and if possible what temperment (style of tuning)?

Hope I have been some more use,

Tim

I don't have the stop list (I lost it somewhere) so I'd like my composition to be as generic as possible using common stops or equivalents (so repeated performance would be a possibility). I'm writing it at equal temperament for an organ with standard swell, great, choir, and pedals (since the key signatures in my piece shift from F major to Bb major to C major to F# major to C major then to the final fugal section in E major). You've actually helped me a lot in getting into the organ's mechanics so now I have a pretty good idea regarding where I should go with the stop assignments. I guess I'd have to make the cellist do a forte or fortissimo for that final fugal section where the organ pedals really have some work (since they're loud and unexpressive). Otherwise, I'd have to revise the piece during the slow meditative sections. You've really helped a lot and I very much appreciate all the tips. Thanks :toothygrin:

your very welcome.

Common stops can be a hastle because there is an infinitely large combination of stops on any organ. What i would suggest then is on the final version of the sheet music put:

"Swell 8' and 4' open; Choir 4' contrasting stopped"

for example and tell the organist to 'mix and match' so to say as indicating very specific stops is very confining from a performance point of view.

(right now I'm wanting to say 'go find a copy of an organ textbook by David Sanger', as it has really good bits on registration and how the book itself suggests registrations. What I'll do is go get it by the organ here and 'show' you how he does it).

I'll be interested to hear the fugue, because I personally havent heard one between organ and another instrument. (I'm getting board of 'bread and butter' Bach).

Hope thats more help,

Tim

PS. Here are some examples how Sanger suggests registrations:

"Gt. Diapasion at 8' and 4', or 8' 4' 2' or 8' 4' 2' 2 2/3' and 2' "

"Sw. Oboe 8'; lh Ch flutes 8' and 4' or Gt flute 8'; Ped soft 16' and 8' "

"Gt 8' 8' 4' 2' Ped 16' 8' 8' 4' to balance"

The possibilities are endless. This system allows alot of flexibility and adds diversity to the music as no two performances on different organs will sound alike (well almost).

Tim

Ever think of using a euphonium horn as a solo instrument? If you can get a good player, the euphonium has comparable versatility to the 'cello in range and agility. It has a beautiful piano and a hall-encompassing forte. Listen to some good euphonium pieces or orchestral excerpts, see what it can do, you might be able to use it instead of 'cello and your problem concerning the possibility of the organ overpowering the solo would be nearly eliminated.

Of course, you would have to reconsider your organ registration on account of the tone difference between 'cello and euphonium. Also, if not a euphonium, a baritone horn. If all you have available is a tenor horn (also called alto horn), you could use that. None of these of course refer to the horn, or French horn as it is called.

I see what you mean. My friend plays the Euphonium (grade 7 or something like that). It could work, just depends on the solo line. I'll ask my friend to give me an 'ultimate' forte (fffffff or something of the sort, but really one f more or less doesnt make a diference :p) and see what happens.

I'll ask my friend to give me an 'ultimate' forte and see what happens.

'Ultimate Forte!' :laugh:

I'm going to use that one in rehearsal when those curs

thank you. I'm not much for Brass as well...

your very welcome.

Common stops can be a hastle because there is an infinitely large combination of stops on any organ. What i would suggest then is on the final version of the sheet music put:

"Swell 8' and 4' open; Choir 4' contrasting stopped"

for example and tell the organist to 'mix and match' so to say as indicating very specific stops is very confining from a performance point of view.

(right now I'm wanting to say 'go find a copy of an organ textbook by David Sanger', as it has really good bits on registration and how the book itself suggests registrations. What I'll do is go get it by the organ here and 'show' you how he does it).

I'll be interested to hear the fugue, because I personally havent heard one between organ and another instrument. (I'm getting board of 'bread and butter' Bach).

Hope thats more help,

Tim

PS. Here are some examples how Sanger suggests registrations:

"Gt. Diapasion at 8' and 4', or 8' 4' 2' or 8' 4' 2' 2 2/3' and 2' "

"Sw. Oboe 8'; lh Ch flutes 8' and 4' or Gt flute 8'; Ped soft 16' and 8' "

"Gt 8' 8' 4' 2' Ped 16' 8' 8' 4' to balance"

The possibilities are endless. This system allows alot of flexibility and adds diversity to the music as no two performances on different organs will sound alike (well almost).

Tim

Thanks. I'll try to get a copy of that book (if I get any luck finding it). I think I saw that book once in a second-hand book store but I wasn't able to buy it :sadtears:. Anyway, I'll let you hear it when I'm done, probably via MIDI file. The fugal part I'm telling you about is not "rule bound" so to speak (that's why I used the term "fugal" as I don't wish to claim that it is a real fugue in the Bach manner). I might have to put additional performance notes in the piece so as not to drown the cello out. :)

Ever think of using a euphonium horn as a solo instrument? If you can get a good player, the euphonium has comparable versatility to the 'cello in range and agility. It has a beautiful piano and a hall-encompassing forte. Listen to some good euphonium pieces or orchestral excerpts, see what it can do, you might be able to use it instead of 'cello and your problem concerning the possibility of the organ overpowering the solo would be nearly eliminated.

Of course, you would have to reconsider your organ registration on account of the tone difference between 'cello and euphonium. Also, if not a euphonium, a baritone horn. If all you have available is a tenor horn (also called alto horn), you could use that. None of these of course refer to the horn, or French horn as it is called.

I haven't thought about using a euphonium. The problem is the piece I'm working on has a lot of "bad" keys for brass like F# major and E major so I thought that though brass can compete with the organ, I'll would have problems with the keys I'm using. I might have to transpose the keys of the piece then plus make other organ registrations that might fit in.