Is Professional Notation Output Important to you?

Let's try to stay on topic. Forget synthesizers, that wasn't the question.

The reason I ask this poll is to help guide me with Young Composer's future. To think that Young Composers can be a big publisher in the future for classical musicians is not really all that far fetched. With the right crew and right investment it can happen. (note, the future). Although we are small right now, take a look at all the interest in this site so far. I never expected the site to even come close to the activity we have today.

And in my opinion, I do think good looking notation is important, especially if submitting it, or trying to get it played. A good recording is also important, but I think first impression says alot. Think about when you first meet a girl. You KNOW very well first impression is important...then once you meet the girl and get to know her, you can start easing up...hopefully! It is my opinion that we can relate this analogy to submitting music to publishers or performers.

I once visited Gary Kulesha (Composer for the Toronto Symphony Orchestra), showed him my music, and apart from him telling me that tonal music is, well, bull scraggy, he seemed more interested in the score than in the music itself. In fact, the guy didn't even listen to the pieces I gave him, he just marked up the score where he thought it didn't look professional enough. Considering that this guy selects a number of pieces to be performed by one of Canada's two premiere orchestras (other being Montreal FYI), I would suspect that a professional looking score is very important. Therefore, in terms of publishing and getting a performance it is vital.

With that said, I really think that it shouldn't be more than an after-thought. While composing, I hardly think it's important to make things look good. Just compose the piece, then worry about looks.

Isn't funny you say that about Kulesha. My brother-in-law was taught by him at U of T. When somebody says that tonal music is bullshit, its usually because they themselves have the hardest trouble in writing a catchy melody. On the other hand, those that have a real knack for writing catchy melodies hate often hate atonal music.

Getting back to the topic...

I think having a score looking good is v. important (makes it easier to read if your handwriting is crap!)

Does anyone know or have access to a font that looks as if you did write it. I mean on many of the parts I see nowadays from big companies, it's written as if somebody did write it. I hate just seeing the computer font on all my work. I want to kind of have something that resembles something original! :D

I use Sibelius 3 for scoring and I'm sure there's a handwritten option on there...

Would there be any chance you uploading the font file? *please,please,please* :)

just putting forth a few opinions... :happy:

Well, I honestly believe that technology will one day surpass human beings.

Technology is constantly being enhanced... upgraded... renovated.

Humans can't.

And who, may i ask, is doing al the upgrading, renovating and enhancing?

Technology cannot surpass us. When it is equal to us, we simply will not be able to improve it any more.

And computers cannot create; they simply follow a set of rules called a program that is WRITTEN BY HUMANS. Everything that technology does is ultimately our doing, as we are the ones who create the technology and make it do what it does.

anyway, regarding scores..... :innocent:

i believe that having a professional--looking score is very important. Yeah, i know music is meant to be heard, not seen, but just because a house is meant for living does not mean we leave it bare with just the necessities, do we? Even as you reply to this, you are probably typing at a computer that someone bought not only because it worked well (which is the main consideration) but also it did not look like a piece of scrap metal. You are probably (hopefully) wearing clothes, not a mouldy brown loincloth, although in terms of practiality both do the same thing...same goes for scores.

Humans are impractical things, you know. That is why we have somethings called "aesthetics"

but what does "professional looking" imply?

that dynamics are clearly notated?

same for tempi and tempo changes?

that notes are clearly understood without ambiguity?

or

that the score follow some arcane set of measurements which are not standardized to any extent in the industry?

The main reason for having a score that is clearly legible and as detailed as musically necessary is so that performers who do NOT have the chance to work closely with the composer can still give a performance that will fall within the expectations of the composer.

The more detailed, clearly legible and "near standard" the notation of your score is, the easier it is to perform, by the widest number of performers. Regardless of the fact that music is an auditory art, some human interaction is necessary to get from the composer's creative impulse to the performer's execution of the work in public.

Poor notation is a serious impediment to frequent performance. This is so simple a concept that it's almost a truism.

I know that as a judge on juries I've seen works completely passed over because of notational issues. This is regardles of the quality of the music. The judges feel bad about it, aware that some possibly great music is being skipped over, but poor notation is a barrier to good musical expression.

It just matters if I'm givin' it to somebody... I can either write it out pretty and neat by hand or just use the computer. All the music I use on the other hand has scribblings of stuff, scratched out sharps/flats/naturals for errors, scribbled IN sharps/flats/naturals... All sorts of stuff. Words all over reminding me of stuff. I never really pay any attention to it though >.> I even write stuff unrelated to piano. To remind me to watch the Simpson's Haloween Special of this season I scribbled it on my Medtner piece. XD!

It seems to make the music more you when I do it... Iunno. But for other people, I'd like to give them it plain and nice looking. Computers ftw as they say.

- Leon

Not the most important thing...

The pity is that all notation software are so restraining and none have really been designed for 20th century writing... any suggestions?

Personally, I like to things backwards; don't know if this is a good thing or not.

Midiillustrator! Write Midi first, and worry about fixing the notation later! :D

Which probably explains the poor-looking score for my Pathetique Suite :angry:

Seriously though; I ususally improvise using a virtual piano roll, and use software to do my notation for me, then I alter the parameters, to change the look of the score (readability), change keys, tempo changes, pedal etc. A professional looking score is a good thing to have if you want your piece performed, but a good midi converter can be useful to record your ideas until you have time to edit the score.

Somebody said that music is for listening to and not looking at (or something to that effect) I couldn't disagree more, your score is like a work of art in itself and it should look as beautifully crafted as any painting or sculpture. Showing care in your presentation breeds confidence in your players because it looks like you really know what you are doing and this adds to your respect. Getting players on your side from day one is absolutely crucial to a successful performance. If your music looks sloppy, it will sound sloppy, regardless of how good a composer you may be. I take great pride in my scores, and I think it should be in every composers itinerary.

I just have a few comments to add.

Someone said that modern music is rock, pop, rap etc.

I personally thought we were referring to art music on this site, contemporary music. So when somebody was defending synthesised music by saying it's just modern music and that's why people don't like it, i'm sorry but there are also other forms of modern music, being produced by composers today. I don't mean to attack synthesised music, just that use of argument.

Also, i disagree that music unperformed but recorded as a readable score is worthless and computers are better than that. I know many people who can gain complete understanding of a work simply by looking at the score. Mozart had an incredible mind like this.

And one last thing, regarding performer's interpretation of the music, i understand that some composers want only what they want and not someone elses interpretation but i personally disagree with this. I don't write music so that I can hear it the way I wanted it to, I write it so it CAN be explored, so I am contributing to the music in the world.

Look at performers like Jacqueline du Pre and the Elgar Cello Concerto. Her interpretation of that work made it something more than it had ever been.

A performer and composer you may or may not be aware of are Jeff Buckley and Leonard Cohen. Jeff Buckley's interpretation of Hallelujah gave the piece a whole new life and voice and the two versions, Cohen's and Buckley's, BOTH hold different beauties.

I hope some of you are still interested in this poll as there don't seem to have been any posts for a while.

Hope I haven't offended anyone, these are just my views, i hold all of yours in the highest respect.

I believe that a professional notation is important but ONLY with regards to having the music published or used by an ensemble. Beyond that it is a tremendous waste of my time. Unless I am working on experimental electronica the MIDI sounds annoy me. Software gets really restrictive in terms of stylistic nuances like beam placement, rubato, accelerandos, frequent time signature changes, mixing triplets with quintuplets...the list goes on. It feels really clunky like I have to rethink each note, I lose the context of the note and have to constantly repeat the same phrases. This just seems unnatural since I don't like to think about individual notes. Music is THE common language and no one thinks about individual words when they communicate but rather phrases and full sentences.

I write at least 10 times faster with just pen and paper than software.

I can also get a better sense of the contours and overall direction of the music.

Besides, has anyone ever actually looked at a copy of a handwritten Bach or Schubert and the like? Those chicken scratch scribbles are truly beautiful!

As I'm not really a composer trying to get others to play my music I find the mp3 much more important than the score. That's how I see it.

yes it is!

the score will be taken by a performer to get performed. That guy/gal, needs to be able to sight read nad read fast and read it clear...

Well, my performer is a virtual orchestra. :)

I believe it's everything!

It's like asking a poet "Is writing all the words you have in mind on the paper important to you?"

The music score is a set of instructions to the performers as of how to perform what you have in your mind. Assuming that by "professional" you mean cleaned up, detailed, organised, clear, as easy to read as possible and without mistakes, then you have to exploit "professionalism" in your notation if you want to hear the piece being performed as you have it in your mind. Can you imagine a painter painting a scenery but painting one fourth of the painting like 2nd-grade drawings, and when asked why he did that he replied "well, I have it on my mind, why should I post it in a professional way?" NO :)

I believe it's everything!

It's like asking a poet "Is writing all the words you have in mind on the paper important to you?"

Yes - but in that way, isn't poetry just like music? It's not necessarily the things on the page, but the things in the air, that we hear. Poetry isn't poetry until heard, whether in the mind or out loud. Whether or not the stuff on the page inhibits you from interpreting the piece correctly, however, is a different story ...

And how are you going to communicate what you want in the air to the people who will make it go in the air? Through a good, professional-looking score :) And just as it will be more difficult for you to understand and interpret a poem if it's written in bad handwriting than if it's typeset, or at least written clearly, it's the same in music :)

EDIT: oops... old :( (I think I clicked on the page after a search for a quite old thread, but didn't notice until now.. - I was wondering how come I haven't seen "Rafn" around lately...)

Yes, it very much is.

Eitherway.....

one of your priorities in music notation.

but hiring an entire orchestra ain't cheap.

is it worthwhile to hire?

There are mostly lots and lots of semi-pro orchestras in cities.

Also music is modified over and over through time. Real players will tend to be problem.

Brahms, Mahler and Bruckner still managed to get the pieces played even though they continually edited them.

No, not all needs a readable score to be played. Fact is... you don't need a PROFESSIONAL-LOOKING score to be played.

Good music does.

I'd like to consider that a beauty with using a computer.

Nothing more beautiful than something without expression.

here's my take on neatness. who gives a crap whether you write an essay in blue ink, black ink, pencil, highlighter, or even if you type it out from a typewriter. what people want to see is the content of the essay, not how well the essay looks.

Bad analogy. A good one would be a essay that the lecturer has trouble reading.

Well, I honestly believe that technology will one day surpass human beings.

Technology is constantly being enhanced... upgraded... renovated.

Humans can't.

We were once bacteria. Unless you're one of those people. And if so, bit hypocritical suggesting science may get better than "God's creation".

Personally I write music with shocking notation because I don't want to waste time thinking of that while I compose. But when I get it performed I edit it to make it readable. Who here can actually easily read a Mozart or R.Strauss manuscript?

My handwriting is bad, so I use computars. But, uh, when it comes to graphic notation and ETC, where without explanations is impossible to read in the first place, there's no real "professional" standard. It works so long as the musicians have a good idea of what they have to do, from reading your score/instructions. If there are questions and they're not meant to be there, then somethin's wrong.

- I don't really know what "professional looking" means, but I definitely find it important that a score is clear and easily legible. Well written parts too! I've played from badly notated parts in orchestras lots of times, even in scores by well-known composers and well-known publishers, and it always annoyed me. Especially in orchestral music, where there usually isn't much time to rehearse a piece, so much valuable time gets lost over issues of unclear notation, which in the end means the piece couldn't be rehearsed as well as if the notation had been clear and it will sound worse in the concert.

As a plus, I always enjoy it when a piece isn't "only" notated clearly, but also "beautifully". I love looking at nice scores, and playing from "good looking" sheet music, can be much more motivating for the interpreter than just a "standard finale file". One of my fellow students really has mastered this, and just looking at his scores is always a pleasure for me, with his conscious choice of what fonts to use, how to space what, etc.

I don't think computer written parts are a necessity though. I very often write my clean copies by hand too, especially if it contains forms of notation which would be very awkward to imitate with Finale. I also often get from musicians that they actually prefer playing from handwritten scores, as long as they look perfectly clear, as it seems "more personal". I too find it a pleasure to look at clear, handwritten scores. It's sad that so many handwritten scores are written so badly and contain so much unintellegible stuff.

I was very lucky to have around 12 hours total of rehearsal time with the orchestra when I conducted Sweeney Todd.

I was also lucky to have professional calibre musicians.

We were NOT lucky, however, in that the score and parts the publisher sent us were HORRIBLY written.

We wasted more than half of our entire alloted rehearsal time trying to correct stupid errors in the parts and inconsistancies between score and parts.

So yes, well-written scores are a necessity.